Ivy has Entropion - Opinions on Surgery?

[elastigirl]

So. I suspected this for the past 6 weeks or so and have been researching. I have actually found a lot of stuff on this forum but nothing *specific* to TMs so thought I'd post here just in case.

Took Ivy to the vet today to confirm that she does in fact have entropion. Just the left eye. Moderately bad case is the impression I got from the vet. He seemed to think surgery should be done almost immediately, in the next few weeks. She's definitely in discomfort. Squinting the eye almost constantly, lots of goop coming out, and eye very red at the bottom under the pupil. It's gotten markedly worse just this week.

I specifically asked if this is surgery that should be delayed, since she's still growing (she's only 20 weeks old) and I have been reading that things can change quickly even if a TM has entropion, they may grow out of it. He said no, that this is not something that will correct itself and we should not wait because she is in a lot of discomfort.

This vet also suggested spaying at 6 months - I told him we were definitely going to wait until 18 months-2 years - funny because another vet at the same practice told me to absolutely wait until she goes through at least one heat and perhaps two.

I'm really leery of doing this surgery too soon and messing up Ivy's beautiful face. At the same time, I don't want anything to damage her eye. The entropion is pretty apparent - I can see how the hairs must be irritating her poor eye.

I'm getting a second opinion tomorrow from a different local vet - this one has seen TMs before but I don't think very many - she's the vet that cares for Ivy's parents. But was hoping someone here had experience with this *specifically* with a TM.

Thanks in advance!
gina

 

[ruthcatrin]

Email Susie at Himalaya TMs in VA, I'll get you her website link if you can't find it. I know she's had at least one dog (not one bred by her, a pup she'd hoped to use in her lines) that had entropian, and she can likely give you advice (she's always willing to discuss TMs, hers or anyone elses!). The recommendation for giant breeds though is to tack the eyelid till they're closer to maturity. I KNOW Apollo's head changed shape between 20 weeks and 2yrs for example!

 

[ruthcatrin]

for a picture "story" of Apollo's growth till 2yrs of age go here: Apollo Turns TWO! - Mastiff Forum! the head difference is very noticeable once you look

 

[elastigirl]

Thanks, Ruth. The pictures do make it evident that their head shape changes a lot. I'm already amazed at how long Ivy's nose has gotten compared with just 10 or so weeks ago.

BTW I love Apollo's coloring. Beautiful!

I know Susie's website and will email her. Thank you!

 

[ruthcatrin]

I knew I'd read something on it somewhere specific to TMs: Tibetan Mastiff Information, Tibetan Mastiffs, Tibetan Mastiff Breeders,Tibetan Mastiff Puppies, Tibetan Mastiff Pictures, Photos, Tibetan Mastiff Info.com

Thank you!

 

[elastigirl]

Thanks, Ruth. Looking up veterinary ophthamologists now. Goodness, who knew there was such a thing.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Well, I did, but thats cause I had Apollo's eye cert done a couple months ago lol

 

[elastigirl]

So wanted to give an update. Poor Ivy is wearing the cone of shame. We went to get our second opinion yesterday. The vet consulted by phone with a vet ophthamologist, who suggested tacking down the bottom eyelid (Ruth, this was in that article you linked to and also Susie O suggested it). Ivy just happened to not have eaten - because she is not really a morning "person" and she did not wake up until I put her leash on to take her out to the vet appointment - so I decided it was serendipitous and that we should go ahead and get it done.

Poor thing looks like frankenstein right now (but I was warned, and this should improve as the sutures relax and the swelling goes down). She is miserable in the cone, of course, and she insists on still going outside to the garden and dragging the cone on the ground so it is full of mulch and pine needles. :/ This is a temporary fix so we will have to go through it again when she is at least 6 months old, but will see how long we can wait so that she gets more growth.

I'm so grateful for the knowledge here. It really did help me get through a couple very trying days. And if anyone has ideas for how to make a conehead dog more comfortable (4 more days of the e-collar, then we can take it off and I will gladly stomp it to bits) I would love to hear them. Thanks, all.

 

[ruthcatrin]

She'll get used to it, and not bang it into things and the like, well, unless she wants to. Hopefully as she gets more growth on her it'll be less of an issue and she won't need it tacked again (hey I can hope right?).

 

[elastigirl]

I'm hoping too. It turned out to be a pretty severe case - I didn't fully realize even after the first vet visit - they were very concerned about corneal abrasions/ulcers - so we might end up having to have it fixed earlier than I'd like, or at the very least tacked again - but will wait and see and keep my fingers crossed. She has a brother that has it in both eyes but I think not quite as bad.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Crossing fingers, knock on wood.....

At the bare minimum the older she is when you have the actual surgery done (vs tacking) the better!

 

[elastigirl]

Yes, because ... once they start excising eyelid ... it can't be put back!

 

[Catia]

Get well soon Ivy!!!!

Did you get any pics of her in Frankenstein mode?
Might be good for others.

Tessa isn't a morning dog either. That's good cuz I am not a morning person. Last thing I want is a hyper all happy springing pooch when I am trying to have my coffee. So on that note, Tessa & I work well together.

Despite 3 alarms going off & the entire house vibrating & buzzing to wake my dead ass out of bed, Tessa doesn't move.
When I do get out of bed, she stretches to take my spot & stays in bed til I make her get up & go outside to pee.

 

[ruthcatrin]

(You may not be able to see these pictures without a Facebook account)

An awesome example. Here's a pup at 7 weeks, notice how badly his skin fits his face and especially his eyes:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152429203428028&set=gm.642366832511167&type=1&theater


And here he is at 1.5yrs of age, notice how much better his skin fits his face and the eye rims have tightened up nicely:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152431035818028&set=p.10152431035818028&type=1&theater

 

[elastigirl]

Ruth, thanks for posting those. Markedly different. I printed out both pictures to bring to our follow-up visit next week.

Catia, thanks. I do have some pictures. If you have Facebook you can see them here.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ivy-Jean-Tibetan-Mastiff/605110052914256

My kids decided she needed a Facebook page so they made one for her when we brought her home - but somehow I have become responsible for most of the content. ;-) I have other pictures but didn't want to post more because it is a little alarming when you first see it.

Ivy is doing okay. Honestly, I think she's a little depressed by the cone. She still wants to be outside but she's sad because she can't sniff or chew on much. It's absolutely necessary though - in the past day the eye has started to itch (I assume this is a good thing meaning it is healing) and she is going crazy trying to get to it - so we definitely need to keep it on to protect the eye.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Go ahead and post the bad ones, if you load'em right to the board it'll make them tiny pictures people would have to click on to see bigger anyway, so they don't have to see them if they're squemish!

 

[elastigirl]

LOL. Okay. Coming up.

 

[elastigirl]

Ok here are pics of Ivy's Frankenstein eye.

Day 1.

Today - Day 3.

I'm actually glad I took this because I just realized her eye looks a little bloody today. Slightly alarmed. Texted my vet with a photo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ruthcatrin]

Poor girl! And yup, pictures are an awesome way to keep track

 

[elastigirl]

Wanted to give an update on Ivy. Glad I listened to my instincts (yep, humans have them too apparently lol) and texted my vet (LOVE her) with a picture of Ivy's eye yesterday. She said to start the antibiotic ointment that we have so Ivy got 2 squirts of that yesterday.

Last night was hell. She was up all night crying and smacking her head against the floor. She can't, obviously, reach the eye so this is all she can do to try to get some relief. Pain meds not really helping. So I took a new picture today - eye more swollen and redder - and my vet said to go to the ER vet today.

After 2 1/2 hours there (but hey, I get it - they were busy) and a very amusing morning with my daughter Kylie pointing out how dogs look like their owners (two examples - big buff bald guy with a pit bull and short lady with a waddly little Corgi) we saw the vet. She stained the cornea and looked (only took 2 people to hold Ivy down) and said there is no ulceration, but she was concerned about infection. So we left with a new pain med/sedative, steroid ointment for her eye and antibiotics to take by mouth three times a day. This makes three meds Ivy has to take by mouth - eight different doses during the day - luckily she is not too bad and if I stick the pill way back and hold her mouth shut she'll swallow. She absolutely hates when I squirt the ointment in her eye. And we are definitely a ways away from taking off the dreaded cone.

I'm currently eyeing the sedative and wondering if it is ok for human consumption ...