Presa pup on Craigslist

[Jerms]

DD if you think firehorse doesnt turn a profit you are dreaming they pay for the titles for the dogs so they can charge a certain amout for puppies and stud fees-- they dont do it to hang on their wall silly.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

]Also, my husband and I visited our breeder quite a bit and it's not like reputable breeders make bank. They were telling us that after they pay for everything they may make enough to buy a modest new car[/B]. You have to take into account the vet bills, meds etc that breeding incurs then all the work that these people put into their dogs and puppies. The work alone would deter me from breeding, I seriously do not know how they do it!

Doggen - the stud fee was included in the link it was 500 and apparently they also gave them a pup. Use example I used of corsos 12000 income from 1 litter there will be profit after overhead. Like I said do the math. Confused68 said that their breeder made enough to buy a modest new car. Thats profit no matter what it comes out to per h

Doesn't seem like a profit to me.

 

[Jerms]

Why would firehorse charge for a dogs sperm if it wasnt a business?

 

[Confused68]

I thought Northern was being very frugal with the numbers- Most breeders are their 24/7 for their pups- It's not an 8 hour job- One of our breeders dogs required a C-section in the middle of the night- Off to the vet for them where they helped the vet deliver the pups- cleaning up all the mess, feeding, making sure each pup is handled on a regular basis- all that takes human interaction- I've never bred a dog in my life and have no desire to do so but after really looking at what is involved it really kind of blew me away. Nobody on here mentioned all the freaks that breeders have to say no too nor about the checks they have to do to ensure that their pups are going to a good home. The time spent answering phone calls and emails from newbies like me asking questions about idea's to curb behavior or product that should be used. Breeders are there for life, I think in alot of cases the dog owner moves on but from what I've seen if you own a breeders pup you will always have that breeder available-

 

[ruthcatrin]

DD if you think firehorse doesnt turn a profit you are dreaming they pay for the titles for the dogs so they can charge a certain amout for puppies and stud fees-- they dont do it to hang on their wall silly.

Do you know how much it costs to get those titles? AKC conformation show (for example) fees run about $30 a day, thats JUST the entrance fee, doesn't include transport to and from, housing while at the show, handler's fees....you're looking at several hundred just for a weekend show. And rare breeds like this don't get a championship in a weekend. I hit a show in Nov with Apollo, he was the only TM there that weekend, which means we didn't earn a single point for the money I shelled out. The show I'm hitting in March? MIGHT have one other TM in it, IF the owner decides he's got the time to spare from the litter of pups he's going to have on site. Apollo's brother is an AKC Grand Champion. IIRR it took him 12 shows to get his Championsip, and another 10 to get his Grand Championship. So sure, she can ask huge stud fees for his services.....but its going to take a HUGE number of matings to make up for the cost of showing him alone, never mind the cost of both his Pennhip AND OFA testing, never mind the every day costs of housing him (and he's huge, he eats a ton). It might be extra money at the point where all the puppy checks come in, but all its doing is allowing them to do things that they couldn't do while they were getting his titles (like buy that new car so the clunker can go to the graveyard).

 

[northernmastiff]

I don't disagree with you there Jerms. However, if you look at a Corso litter and you have all the breeding costs of say 4000. Your profit is 8000 for 4 months of work from the time of breeding to the time the puppies are rehomed. You get it in one lump sum so you can purchase something like a new car but if you break it down to actual hours, it does not come to very much. 640 hours is 12.50 an hour. Which is a wonderful wage when you look at it that way but you aren't looking at it factoring in all the variables. If the breeder is showing, you are looking at probably 6k to get a dog from start to finish (some breeders have paid upwards of 100k, ads for Westminster alone can run 20K). Then there is food. I spend 150 a month on food, you could spend less but we are talking quality. So 150 for food and if you only keep the dog for breeding and then rehome at say 6 years old, you are looking at 10,800 in food (not including puppy food). Vet visits, and everything else is on there as well and usually, breeding dogs do not get the same vet care as a pet, they get a lot more. My friend has a litter due in January and she has been to the vet about 6 times already just to make sure the dog is doing well.

So yes, you can make a profit if you just look at it as a by the litter. You have 8 puppies, you pay out 4k for overhead to raise those puppies, you make 8k. Simple math. it doesn't matter if you have to take off two weeks from work or you end up spending four weeks only getting 3 hours of sleep every night because you are not doing the hourly math. Just figuring on that back roll.

I am a writer, I work freelance and so does my husband. So yes, I often make a profit when you use a simple calculation. If I get an advance for a project for 10k, I just made a huge profit. However, if it is a book I sold, then I have to pay back the advance with royalties. It also doesn't factor in the hours I will be committed before I can make any money. By the end, when you look at an hourly wage, it becomes a reasonable hourly wage (and yes, I make more than if I worked at Mcdonalds), however, it would be a poor business model if I went, oh yeah, that was my profit. Yeah, I made a big chunk of change all at once and could buy a small car but I have to take into account overhead, hours and then a portion of the money has to go back into the business to get my next client, book, and so on done.

Overhead in business means not only the overhead of producing that product but also the long range overhead that will affect your business. Breeders look at that 8k profit and recoup their initial expenses and then apply a portion of it to their business to move forward. At the end, they make a small amount to buy themselves a new pair of shoes. Of course, there are breeders who produce many (and I mean many, I saw a breeder produce 105 bulldog puppies in a 9 month span) litters in a year and those are the breeders who are breeding for profit and are not considered reputable in my mind. Other breeders who produce 1 to 3 litters a year are not going to be making a huge profit.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 PM ----------

I thought Northern was being very frugal with the numbers- Most breeders are their 24/7 for their pups- It's not an 8 hour job- One of our breeders dogs required a C-section in the middle of the night- Off to the vet for them where they helped the vet deliver the pups- cleaning up all the mess, feeding, making sure each pup is handled on a regular basis- all that takes human interaction- I've never bred a dog in my life and have no desire to do so but after really looking at what is involved it really kind of blew me away. Nobody on here mentioned all the freaks that breeders have to say no too nor about the checks they have to do to ensure that their pups are going to a good home. The time spent answering phone calls and emails from newbies like me asking questions about idea's to curb behavior or product that should be used. Breeders are there for life, I think in alot of cases the dog owner moves on but from what I've seen if you own a breeders pup you will always have that breeder available-

I know, I was being very frugal. LOL. We had a pom litter that we had to bottle feed for the first 4 weeks until they switched to solids. Trust me, a 40 hour work week would have been a luxury and everyone in the family had to pitch in. By the end of the 4 weeks and that first sloppy solid feed, we celebrated with a good night's sleep.

 

[northernmastiff]

I thought Northern was being very frugal with the numbers- Most breeders are their 24/7 for their pups- It's not an 8 hour job- One of our breeders dogs required a C-section in the middle of the night- Off to the vet for them where they helped the vet deliver the pups- cleaning up all the mess, feeding, making sure each pup is handled on a regular basis- all that takes human interaction- I've never bred a dog in my life and have no desire to do so but after really looking at what is involved it really kind of blew me away. Nobody on here mentioned all the freaks that breeders have to say no too nor about the checks they have to do to ensure that their pups are going to a good home. The time spent answering phone calls and emails from newbies like me asking questions about idea's to curb behavior or product that should be used. Breeders are there for life, I think in alot of cases the dog owner moves on but from what I've seen if you own a breeders pup you will always have that breeder available-

I know, I was being very frugal. LOL. We had a pom litter that we had to bottle feed for the first 4 weeks until they switched to solids. Trust me, a 40 hour work week would have been a luxury and everyone in the family had to pitch in. By the end of the 4 weeks and that first sloppy solid feed, we celebrated with a good night's sleep.

 

[TN Dogues]

I'm just going to jump in here a moment...

I think the original poster had a problem with the MORALS of dog flipping. Most people accept flipping when it refers to real estate or other objects. However, flipping animals for profit is seen by many as heartless since the consquences can have long reaching effects on the animal itself.

Craigslist is FULL of flippers. They get free or cheap dogs and then repost the same dog a week or so later for $$$.
Is it legal? Yes. Is it morally right? I don't believe it is. And I certainly would be seeking legal advice if it were any of MY pups listed for sale (breach of contract).

Yes, there is no solid concrete evidence that this particular person selling the pup is doing that, but it was suspicious.

There are also people who get dogs for cheap from kill shelters, and flip them too for hundreds of dollars. They call themselves rescues but they are just thinly disguised flippers. See post on Rising Phoenix Mastiff Rescue.

If the guy truly is moving after getting the pup and is just trying to recoup his money, then fine. I would not have a problem with that.

 

[Jerms]

DD enough money to buy a modest NEW car is nice profit.

 

[ruthcatrin]

DD enough money to buy a modest NEW car is nice profit.

Depends, are we talking a down payment of a few grand or buying it upfront and either way its only "profit" till you figure in the expenses already paid to get it. Then you've not even made minimum wage for your time....

 

[sissie20]

um excuse me as i have actually talked to the guy myself through text message okay so he purchases this dog for 800 dollars ships the dog up here then turns right around and tries to sell it because hes supposedly is moving where they cant take the dog i call BS big time if they knew they were moving they would'nt have bought the dog up here so what it is he bought a dog from the lower 48 for cheap shipped the dog up here thinking no one would find out about it and try to sell the dog for more than what he paid and thats not the part that angers me what ticks me off is he bring a dog thats not really heard of up here puts in on craigslist and alot of people are gunna respond to the add because of the dogs looks and hes just gunna sell it to any tom dick and harry just so he can get his money so he doesnt give a rats ass where that dog goes or ends up ....when i responded to that add he was real quick trying to sell me the dog didnt even ask my name and i could be lets say a freakin dog skinner or killer for gods sake and he didnt give a crap so yes thats why im PISSED i feel very sorry for that puppy there are so many flippers and millers up here it aint even funny im praying for that dog

 

[Cody]

Northernmastiff--some litters dont turn out profitable. You can bet your bottom dollar that the large and reputable kennels make money. If a corso breeder has a litter of 8 puppies and sells them for an average of 1500 each thats 12000 dollars. I dont care what your overhead is you make some money--disasters aside. Like I said some breeders make more than others. Just like in business--maybe pomeraniums arent a profitable breed.

I agree 100% that some of the larger kennels, are making a profit.
But the small time reputable hobby breeders are not. The breeders that are only producing one litter ever year or two.
Lets say there are 7 pups, those pups the breeder has incurred whelping costs, stud fees, ear cropping/tail docking, shots, microchips, registration paperwork... A GOOD breeder is not breeding to sell the pups, they are breeding for themselves. They retain a minimum of one pup, the breeders I know usually will retain 3-4 until they are close to a year and then re-evaluate to see if they are what they want to further their program in their kennel. The rest of the pups are sold on strict companion contracts. The remaining pups the breeder then starts handling and training classes, training is roughly 200$ per pup for 6-8 weeks, handling class is 10$ a pup for drop in a week.
Depending on how the pups turn out the breeder then will start showing the pups retained, if they cannot they will send out with a professional handler. Usually running 2-3k a month, plus entry fees, dog food, gas or airfare to shows, food costs and any all vet costs.
Lets say out of the 4 retained, 3 really like. The 4th will be sold as a companion. The 3 then the breeder may look into finding co-own homes for. Many times that is at a reduced price. Many times these breeders are very careful about who they stud out their dogs to, if they stud out at all, wanting to protect lines that they have placed their heart, soul and wallet into. I know quite a few breeders who have dogs which are high ranking AKC GCH that will not stud out at all, and if are very select with who.
They are not making a profit.
They are not breeding for puppy sales.
I personally would NEVER look at a breeder who would sell pick of the litter, that is the dog who should be retained .

 

[northernmastiff]

I agree 100% that some of the larger kennels, are making a profit.
But the small time reputable hobby breeders are not. The breeders that are only producing one litter ever year or two.
Lets say there are 7 pups, those pups the breeder has incurred whelping costs, stud fees, ear cropping/tail docking, shots, microchips, registration paperwork... A GOOD breeder is not breeding to sell the pups, they are breeding for themselves. They retain a minimum of one pup, the breeders I know usually will retain 3-4 until they are close to a year and then re-evaluate to see if they are what they want to further their program in their kennel. The rest of the pups are sold on strict companion contracts. The remaining pups the breeder then starts handling and training classes.
Depending on how the pups turn out the breeder then will start showing the pups retained, if they cannot they will send out with a professional handler. Usually running 2-3k a month, plus entry fees, dog food, gas or airfare to shows, food costs and any all vet costs.
Lets say out of the 4 retained, 3 really like. The 4th will be sold as a companion. The 3 then the breeder may look into finding co-own homes for. Many times that is at a reduced price. Many times these breeders are very careful about who they stud out their dogs to, if they stud out at all, wanting to protect lines that they have placed their heart, soul and wallet into. I know quite a few breeders who have dogs which are high ranking AKC GCH that will not stud out at all, and if are very select with who.
They are not making a profit.
They are not breeding for puppy sales.
I personally would NEVER look at a breeder who would sell pick of the litter, that is the dog who should be retained .

Agree with you completely Cody. I was laughing about the pick sale. I know a lab breeder who kept saying. This litter I am going to let go. This litter I will sell pick pup because I am not keeping a puppy. Then she would email me and say, "Yep, my resolve lasted all of 4 weeks." :lolbangtable: She didn't produce a lot of litters, 1 or 2 a year so it was really hard for her to pass up a pick because it could be the "one". The perfect dog that she had been building up to, the once in a lifetime puppy that came as close to perfection as you could get them.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

DD if you think firehorse doesnt turn a profit you are dreaming they pay for the titles for the dogs so they can charge a certain amout for puppies and stud fees-- they dont do it to hang on their wall silly.

Did you not read their site? I'm going to start charging you for being your interpreter????

From Fire Horse Cane Corso:

"Our mission is to preserve and further the traditional Italian Cane Corso… to always work toward the “total package”. It is not enough for our dogs to be strikingly beautiful, powerful and elegant. Our highest priority is given to temperament. We build rock solid family guardians… sound in mind and body, harmonious in form and function. We do NOT follow trends. We honor tradition. We are active in conformation showing, obedience and protection training and we participate in a variety of dog sports."

"We live and breathe Cane Corso here."

So yeah to do it to hang on their wall, "silly"

---------- Post added at 02:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 PM ----------

DD enough money to buy a modest NEW car is nice profit.

"Modest" and "New" mean different things to people. I drove a 92 Explorer and finally brought a "new" 99 Silverado

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

DD enough money to buy a modest NEW car is nice profit.

"Modest" and "New" mean different things to people. I drove a 92 Explorer and finally brought a "new" 99 Silverado

 

[Kelly]

Well put, DD

My guess is Jerms hasn't had alot of dealings with dog rescue, and kill shelters that are full of dogs that got flipped and no real training until they started exhibiting negative behaviours due to stress. Or maybe a troll?

 

[cwayaustx]

Maybe he's got a presa pup he's trying to sell?? jk...

Well put, DD

My guess is Jerms hasn't had alot of dealings with dog rescue, and kill shelters that are full of dogs that got flipped and no real training until they started exhibiting negative behaviours due to stress. Or maybe a troll?

 

[Jadotha]

Here are my perspectives: (Apologies in advance for a looooonnnng post)

First, in terms of profitability, most breed clubs have fairly stringent Codes of Ethics for members and breeders. For example the (English) Mastiff Club of American has the following requirements for reputable breeders -- intended to discourage 'puppy-milling' -- which reduce potential for making profits:

The Mastiff Club of America requires its members to adhere to the following guidelines which constitute its Code of Ethics. The Club also requires that members, breeders and stud dog owners not aid or abet the violation of these guidelines by anyone else. This Code details certain practices necessary to implement the objectives of the Club as outlined in Article 1, Section 2 of its Constitution.

1. I will consider only the betterment of the breed when breeding a bitch or allowing a breeding with my stud dog, being conscientious of controlling and eliminating inherited problems. A breeder and stud dog owner shall plan each breeding with the paramount intention of protecting the breed, and only when the parties involved agree the breeder is in a position and has the knowledge to give proper care to both the bitch and offspring.

2. I will not allow a bitch to be bred prior to her reaching twenty-two (22) months of age, nor shall any bitch be bred after her seventh (7th) birthday. A bitch will not be bred more than once in any twelve (12) month period unless she does not whelp a litter, the litter is stillborn, consists of a single (1) pup, or as a part of a veterinarians recommendation for treatment of pyometria. Any other reason would need to be stated in writing, along with a licensed veterinarians certification of good health, to be received by the Recording Secretary at least fourteen (14) days prior to the breeding for the Boards approval.

3. I will sell a Mastiff only to a buyer whom I believe to be interested in the protection of the breed and who would agree in writing to provide the highest quality of care for said Mastiff, including quality food, water, proper shelter from heat or cold, active companionship, appropriate exercise, socialization and professional veterinary care whenever necessary.

4. An MCOA member will sell each Mastiff puppy/adult on a written contract signed by all parties. Said contract shall contain, but is not limited to the following provisions:
a. Complete care/feeding instructions.
b. A record of inoculations and worming with a recommended continuation schedule.
c. Provide the buyer with a five (5) generation pedigree on the litter.
d. Furnish a signed AKC registration or transfer form, unless written agreement is made with the buyer that such papers are withheld or are to follow.
e. A provision that ensures that the breeder is contacted whenever an owner can no longer keep a dog at anytime in the dogs life and that the breeder will take back the dog if asked to do so.
f. Stipulate that the buyer have a veterinary check-up within five (5) working days of the sale, (or whatever is applicable in your state of residence), to determine that the Mastiff is healthy. If the veterinarian determines that the Mastiff is not in good health, the breeder will, upon the Mastiffs return, refund the purchase price or replace the Mastiff.

5. I will not knowingly sell or provide a Mastiff for resale, gift or prize or to a broker/agent for resale. I will not engage in the brokering of puppies, (selling or buying), EXCEPT in a case that would prevent a potential rescue situation. ALL SUCH CASES MUST be documented by letter to the MCOA Recording Secretary.

6. I will not sell a puppy/adult who is sick, nor will I ship or deliver to the buyer a puppy less than eight (8) weeks of age.

7. I will show good sportsmanship at all times and in all matters relating to Mastiffs. I will maintain the highest degree of honesty and integrity. I will not knowingly make a misstatement of fact in any serious discussion of my Mastiffs or the Mastiffs of any other Mastiff owner that I might have with persons not qualified to judge the fact for themselves. When advertising my Mastiffs in any media (magazines, internet websites, mail, email, etc.) I will not make false or misleading statements. I will only use a picture of another owners Mastiff with the owners express permission and I will clearly identify that Mastiff and the Mastiffs owner in the ad.

8. I will take back any Mastiff bred/sold by me who has been displaced. If I am unable to do so, I will assist MCOA Rescue or a regional Mastiff club rescue in the placement of said Mastiff. I will reimburse MCOA Rescue for all costs incurred not to exceed three-hundred dollars ($300.00).

9. I will require the neutering/spaying of any puppy/adult I place or sell as pet quality as soon as the dog reaches the appropriate age. The MCOA recommends puppies deemed pet quality to be placed with Limited Registration; puppies whose quality is questionable should be placed with Limited Registration which is reversible, if appropriate, when said puppy becomes more mature and a better determination of quality can be rendered; show/breeding quality puppies should be placed with either Full or Limited Registration.

10. I will not sell, nor use, a Mastiff for the purpose of attack training, fighting, or any other sport detrimental to the breed and its reputation.

11. I will not produce more than eight (8) litters in any twenty-four (24) month period per household nor will I permit my stud dog to be used in a program, which would exceed eight (8) litters per twenty-four (24) month period per household. I will not purposely evade these guidelines by putting my dogs in the name of friends or other family members.

12. I will provide the highest quality care to all Mastiffs that I own, or that are in my possession, for as long as they are in my care including quality food, water, proper shelter from heat or cold, active companionship, appropriate exercise, socialization, and professional veterinary care whenever necessary. I will never abuse, nor knowingly allow abuse of these same Mastiffs.

If a member breeder does not honour the code they can be brought up on ethics charges and kicked out of the MCOA. There are clubs/organisations with by laws and codes of ethics for breeders of many other breeds. I don't know if there is a similar body for Presas. I believe the UPPC uses the UKC Code -- which is quite watered down compared to the above, but still has some expectations about breeders being discerning about where their puppies are going and are prohibited from selling to wholesalers or 'retailers' -- which, broadly speaking would include someone flipping puppies.

There certainly are mastiff breeders I know that I would still consider reputable and responsible who do have 'commercial' operations. Hence they do not belong to the MCOA because they cannot abide by the strictures on numbers of litters per year. But the ones I know adhere to all of the other MCOA ethics requirements, retire their bitches after two litters, and incur huge expenses showing multiple dogs -- and generations of dogs -- to their championships in national and international shows. I don't know any reputable breeder who can count on making a consistent profit over the long term. As I believe we have all learned from our own dogs, disaster can strike at any time. My breeder had acquired particular bloodlines that conformed to her 'vision' and by dint of very selective and careful breeding for three or so generations, produced her 'dream' stud dog. Well, right after his first litter, he got loose and was hit by a car and killed. Many English Mastiff bitches require C-sections -- which are costly on their own and sometimes go terribly wrong; litters are reabsorbed or still born-- as people have already mentioned, you can't guarantee how many pups are likely to be born in a given litter -- could be 16, could be a singleton. Many breeders do ultrasounds to determine this -- another big expense. Puppies die within the first three weeks; dogs bloat; hereditable disorders may suddenly crop up in a bloodline -- forcing breeding programs to be abandoned.

I've never bred dogs, but I have bred, trained and showed Arabian horses. I was a preservationist breeder of some ancient bloodlines. I was in it because I was passionate about it. My operation did not break even for over seven years, and when we finally made some profit, it was because we had expanded our operation to include boarding, training, selling tack and renting facilities for horse shows.

Whilst I would not condone ANYONE flipping a puppy of any breed, in this case we apparently have someone who is selling a Presa puppy to (it sounds like) anyone who will cough up the cash. If it is not someone who knows Presas, this is a recipe for later disaster.

 

[Jerms]

DD its a web site un reputable breeders put the same stuff on their sites no? Does that mean that un-reputable breeders dont want profit. The kennel in the UK that was using one of black shadows dogs picture without permission had the same type of jargon to describe their kennel. So a kennel with ten champion dogs like firehorse who are charging as much as 3000 per puppy plus stud services isnt making some money--you guys are turning reputable breeders into saints. Believe me they make money. It just varies on how much. And how is flipping a dog from a kill shelter a bad thimg we would rather the dog dead? That doesnt make sense. We can dock tails and crop ears and spay and neuter these dogs but god forbid a guy down on his luck re-sells one!

 

[ruthcatrin]

DD its a web site un reputable breeders put the same stuff on their sites no? Does that mean that un-reputable breeders dont want profit. The kennel in the UK that was using one of black shadows dogs picture without permission had the same type of jargon to describe their kennel. So a kennel with ten champion dogs like firehorse who are charging as much as 3000 per puppy plus stud services isnt making some money

You've never done small business bookkeeping have you?

And you'll note that we never said they weren't making money, just that there wasn't any major profit in it. This isn't something you make your fortune at if you're doing it right.

And you'll note that none of us believe the guy is really down on his luck either....Heck, RXgoforth, when she was searching for homes for her pups, discovered a lady who was buying and reselling dogs exactly the way this guy was. She had several ads up on craigslist "moving, must rehome dog, fee...." and was trying to GET puppies from RXGoforth at the same time she was running those ads.