Two questions. 1 food aggression and 1 raw diet portion

[corsotx]

Hi I just got my puppy at 11 weeks old and immediately switch him to raw diet. I read about the 80/10/10% portion and read that puppy should start with something easier to bite such as chicken backs, thigh and drumstick.

Firstly, the pup only eats one chicken thigh from the lot of backs and 2 thighs. The total of each meal is 1.2 lbs based on the weight of parents of 150lbs. Is this okay because the puppy will not be able to finish the required 3.6lbs meal each day.

Also, I noticed food aggression when I get near the meat and he would growl at me. I was patient and stood firm and he backed down and let me have the meat. It has been the same for few meals. The pup stop the aggression after some corrections. I know that it is of high value to him. However, my wife doesn't see it in such way where we are afraid that it would a problem growing older.

I would like to hear more from the forum before giving up the puppy back to the breeder which we are not happy of. We will have a baby soon.

Thank you.

 

[musicdeb]

The pup will likely start eating more of the raw diet. Where does he fall on the body condition chart?



The pup is resource guarding because he considers the raw meat high value and he's afraid you're going to take it from him. He's also 11 weeks old and needs to be taught what is the correct behavior.


Resource guarding is a behavior in which the dog is afraid you're going to take their food away. Taking away their food reinforces the resource guarding behavior.

It takes a lot of patience and not allowing the dog to get you angry or frustrated. The dog is doing what they feel they need to do to keep their food.

Do the following to stop the growling:

Hand feed the dog for a few days.

While the dog is in sit put a little bit of food in the bowl. Tell the dog it*s ok to eat.

Once the dog finishes the food, make the dog sit. Allow the dog to watch you put more food in the bowl. Tell the dog it*s ok to eat.

Repeat until he's eaten his normal amount of food.

You will have to do this routine for as long as it takes that the dog will no longer growl at you. This will show the dog that you feed them and that you are not going to take their food away from them.

Once the growling stops do the following:

With the dog in sit, fill the bowl with a little food as the dog is watching you fill the bowl.

Place the bowl on the ground and tell the dog it*s ok to eat.

Add food to the bowl by hand as the dog is eating.

Watch his body language to be sure the dog will not snap at you.

As you are adding more food to the bowl by hand while the dog is eating, say good boy/good girl. Do this until you are able to put your hand in the bowl with no issues.

If you become afraid of the dog, they will know it. If you become frustrated, they will know it and stop listening to you.

It's a long process...just keep on keeping on. Consistency and LOTS of patience are key.


Titan had this behavior when I first got him. It took 4-5 months to resolve the behavior.

Keep us posted.

 

[corsotx]

Thanks for quick reply.

The puppy is probably at number 7 according to the chart. My wife tried feeding him by hand and the puppy ate only 3small pieces.

No growling whatsoever.

However, the puppy is currently suffering from separation anxiety and cry a lot in the crate.

By the way, will switching back to the food that the breeder feed solve the food aggression as it wouldn't deemed as high value food.

Thanks again.

 

[musicdeb]

He's crying in the crate because he's young and needs to be taught that the crate is a happy place. Does the crate have a blanket, a stuffed animal he can cuddle with, chew toys? He's used to snuggling with his siblings. Give him time.

Why switch the food when resource guarding can be resolved? Raw diet is the better diet. What was the breeder feeding the pup?

 

[musicdeb]

Hand feed the pup the raw meat, it will work the same way as hand feeding the dog food.

Is this your first mastiff puppy? Sounds like you want the puppy to act like a trained, grown pup who is only 11 weeks old.

 

[corsotx]

The breeder fed dry kibble twice a day. Again, pup is only eating a piece of hand fed chicken thigh which is still way far from the suggested portion.

No growling during hand feeding at dinner time.

It is out first time mastiff prior to having German shepherd and Rottweiler which both seems to have higher prey drive.

 

[Hector]

The problem is once the dog deems an item high value, his resource guarding will resurface. You have to work on the problem now and not ignore it. What if he's full grown and finds something in the house that he deems high value, then you're back to the same problem just 100+ lbs later with no prior conditioning or training whatsoever and no experience on how to deal with it.

I suggest working on a command that tells the dog to back off/release/or stop eating. This can be done with kibble since he doesn't guard it. Have a bowl of kibble out. Put him on a leash. Tell him to "out" (off, release, whatever your cue is) and lead him away from the kibble. Lead him back to the bowl of kibble and make him sit (waiting for food is good practice) and then tell him "okay" (whatever release word you want - break, eat, free). Keep repeating this exercise until he can out without any guidance from his leash. He's only 11 weeks old so stop at 3-4 repetitions a day during mealtime. You can reward with another food item if you want when he outs his food or stick with praise.

Once the dog can out on command without a leash, you repeat this process with higher value food items. Progress by adding wet food in the kibble, then adding cooked meat, then work towards raw meat. Then you want to repeat this process with bones, chews, etc. This out command should only used when the dog is eating (bowl of food or bone or chew).

Hand feed when you can. You can also do things like dropping a high value food item when you walk by his bowl. Don't say anything, just walk by and drop stuff so he gets used to you being close to his food bowl. This will be helpful later on when you move onto the raw meat.

On top of that, practice impulse control with food by doing lots of leave it and drop it exercises.

 

[musicdeb]

The breeder fed dry kibble twice a day. Again, pup is only eating a piece of hand fed chicken thigh which is still way far from the suggested portion.

No growling during hand feeding at dinner time.

It is out first time mastiff prior to having German shepherd and Rottweiler which both seems to have higher prey drive.

Mastiffs are very stubborn and very independent. They require positive reinforcement training with motivational rewards. They do not do well with yelling or hitting (I'm not saying you hit your pup). They will feel your frustration and shut down on you and stop listening. Consistency with training with motivational rewards and LOTS of patience is necessary for effective training.

Keep us posted on the pup's progress.

 

[DennasMom]

Portion size guideline for puppies is the smaller of:
(1) 10% of current weight, or
(2) 2.5% of adult expected weight
[this is a daily total, split into 2, 3 or 4 meals]

So, a 20lb puppy would only need 2lbs of food a day (versus 3.75lbs based on adult expected weight)

Once you get a good starting point, you adjust as needed to keep the puppy growing with a good, lean body condition score.

Resource Guarding - I would give the puppy a little bit of his meal, let him eat it in peace for a few minutes, then, before he's completely done, ask him to look at you (and/or sit & wait) while you ADD MORE food... so he gets rewarded for stepping away from his food dish. I still regularly "sneak" high value treats or tid-bits into Denna's dish as she's eating... she knows that I only ADD good stuff, I never take it away, so there's NO reason to guard stuff from me.

If you step up to the dish to add a tasty tid bit and get growled at... I would ask the puppy "what, don't you WANT what I have in my hand???" in a very low-key, calm tone, then dangle the new tid-bit toward him to get his attention. Get the puppy more excited about what you have than what's already in the dish... then make him sit&wait for you to add it to the dish - then give him his release cue to resume eating (again, in peace). It shouldn't take more than a few repetitions for him to figure out that he'd rather stop, sit & wait for the new stuff than worry about what's already in the dish.

 

[corsotx]

Guys, update.

For morning, hand fed - no problem.

For lunch, I fed the whole chicken back as I am afraid that my chopped bits will cut the pup's mouth. Anyway, I sat beside the pup all the time and was touching his body which he seemed relax as the rear legs were rested. Also, my hands were closed to his mouth and the raw meat. No growling in both occasions. I then practiced exchanging for treats with "leave it" command and it worked 6 of 8 times. However, the 2nd time was just a small growl but the 5th was a bit serious with stronger growling and when I took the food from him, he was very frustrated. So, I gave him a time out (slightly frustrated-gotta admit) and changed my tone to a more cheerful-playing mood with him at the grass (I fed him at the backyard). He was then back to his cheerful self. I then fed him again with "Sit" command and had no problem with touching and playing with the meat on the 7th and 8th time.

PS. I am leaning towards sticking at the raw meat now instead of kibble as I felt that he could do it. However, I am open to more suggestions and opinions. Thank you.

Note: 2 night with puppy - still with food aggression and better at crate during bedtime.

 

[musicdeb]

No need to chop up the chicken back because cutting the back can cause sharp edges.

Remember, consistency and patience. Taking the food and not giving it back defeats the purpose of alleviating the resource guarding. Resource guarding is the fear of taking the food away.

Sounds like you're making progress but I have to tell you, it's going to take more than a couple of days to stop this behavior. It could take a couple of weeks to a couple of months.

I agree you should remain with raw diet.

 

[corsotx]

No need to chop up the chicken back because cutting the back can cause sharp edges.

Remember, consistency and patience. Taking the food and not giving it back defeats the purpose of alleviating the resource guarding. Resource guarding is the fear of taking the food away.

Sounds like you're making progress but I have to tell you, it's going to take more than a couple of days to stop this behavior. It could take a couple of weeks to a couple of months.

I agree you should remain with raw diet.

Do you mean that I should not take the food away? or take and exchange with higher value item then return the food?

I felt like I have gotten the aggressor one from the breeder. To be honest, it is scary for me and my wife after watching the food aggressive youtubes.

 

[corsotx]

Updates.

Dinner - Hand fed chopped chicken thighs. Eating only 1 and 1/2 thighs. No growling. He weighs about 30lb according to pet travel sticker.

BTW, very aggressive while playing. Not the same behaviour as doberman pup.

 

[Hector]

Guys, update.

For morning, hand fed - no problem.

For lunch, I fed the whole chicken back as I am afraid that my chopped bits will cut the pup's mouth. Anyway, I sat beside the pup all the time and was touching his body which he seemed relax as the rear legs were rested. Also, my hands were closed to his mouth and the raw meat. No growling in both occasions. I then practiced exchanging for treats with "leave it" command and it worked 6 of 8 times. However, the 2nd time was just a small growl but the 5th was a bit serious with stronger growling and when I took the food from him, he was very frustrated. So, I gave him a time out (slightly frustrated-gotta admit) and changed my tone to a more cheerful-playing mood with him at the grass (I fed him at the backyard). He was then back to his cheerful self. I then fed him again with "Sit" command and had no problem with touching and playing with the meat on the 7th and 8th time.

PS. I am leaning towards sticking at the raw meat now instead of kibble as I felt that he could do it. However, I am open to more suggestions and opinions. Thank you.

Note: 2 night with puppy - still with food aggression and better at crate during bedtime.

He growls because you are moving onto a very high food item too soon without working from kibble on up to the meat. If you jump straight to raw meat, you have to expect growls. Even when he is not growling, I suspect there are body signals you are not catching. Guarding signs can be head lowering over item when you approach, eating faster, freezing when petted, side stares, tension around the lips, etc. Not that it's impossible to to work with raw meat like you are now, but I feel that there are going to be more failures in the future and more frustration on your part because you have not properly conditioned the dog using low value food to higher value foods. Even though, you think he's okay with you petting and messing with his food - he's probably not. Try giving him the piece of meat and then go up to him and pet him or touch the meat, you will see he won't be okay because he was never really okay during those sessions.

You should go back to the exercises I suggested about outing the food. I have a dog with resource guarding issues and if someone had told me to train a dog like he had resource guarding issues, I think I'd have a hell of an easier time getting to where I'm at. I also think it's a better way. Take the time to build a solid foundation and this means starting with very low value items and teaching a cue and behavior around food.

Since you haven't taught a strong drop it command, you find yourself taking the dog's food away when he growls. When the dog is worried about his food taken away and you do exactly what he was worried about, you will have a harder time convincing him that you won't be taking food away. You take food away because you have no other option, but if you had a solid out or drop it command, you could have used that and made the dog willingly give up the food instead. That should be the end goal in any training is to have the dog willingly comply to commands without having to use any force.

You're not going to achieve this overnight. These things take months and sometimes the issue pops up again when you think the problem has been resolved. Some dogs have a strong tendency to resource guard like my problematic dog and it is very frustrating to sometimes to be going backwards when other times he'd be okay. It becomes hard to pinpoint what the triggers are, but I guess that's the fun part about training.

 

[musicdeb]

Do you mean that I should not take the food away? or take and exchange with higher value item then return the food?

I felt like I have gotten the aggressor one from the breeder. To be honest, it is scary for me and my wife after watching the food aggressive youtubes.

This is a normal behavior for puppies. If you are afraid of your pup, he feels your fear. Maybe you should return the pup since you and your wife are not able to cope with this behavior.

 

[corsotx]

Update 1/6/2015 - Day 4 - Breakfast

Hand fed raw food in the backyard. Puppy took the meat and tried to bury it. Doesn't want to eat. We stopped and I move the feeding to the pen. The pup then started eating the food one by one. Should the feeding to be placed in the pen?

With all my respect and I really do appreciate the support, I am starting to be really confused with the mixed opinions on starting the high value food right away or gradually as Hector suggested.

The pup is doing very well with "leave it" command with toys and relatively good with food.

PS. We discussed with the breeder about 2 weeks time frame for the pup to feel comfortable with us and we will determine from there.

PPS. I hope to ask as many questions/updates as possible and hopefully others could monitor the progress from day 1.

 

[musicdeb]

Yes, you will find difference of opinions. What you need to do is go with whatever works for you and the pup.

Titan was eating dog food when I rescued him at 2 1/2 years of age and then I switched him to raw. He started to resource guard the raw meat. It took me about 4-5 months to resolve the behavior. Now I can put my hand in his food with no issues.

If he's eating in the pen, is that a crate?, then feed him in his pen. Do what works for you and the pup.

Sound likes you are making progress with the "leave it" with toy and food. Just keep on keeping on...

When is the 2 weeks up for you to make a decision?

I would like to reiterate that changing this behavior can take more than 2 weeks. As with all training, it requires consistency and patience. Do not become frustrated as the pup will feel it and shut down and stop listening. Do not show fear as he could kick into guardian mode and try to find out what you are afraid of.

IMO, 2 weeks is not long enough to correct this behavior. If you return the pup, I'm sure the breeder is not going to continue feeding raw diet which is a shame because he would do really well with raw diet.

 

[corsotx]

Thank you for all the support. It really matters for us and we'd really appreciate it.

I sat down with my wife to find the best solution for the puppy. We made a simply training routine for this matter and we are open to opinions. Thank you again.

Routine

Breakfast
Location - Feeding in the pen area *Crate is in the play/ exercise pen.
Method - Hand feeding by wife from smallest bits to biggest. Stopping when pup doesn't want more.
Training - Touching the puppy from nose to tail.
Goal - to increase the size of the food and puppy will not resolve to growling. (At the moment, no guarding when hand fed. Only occasional when whole back is given)

Lunch
Location - open are in the kitchen instead of backyard with higher distraction.
Method- Hand feeding by husband from smallest to biggest. Stopping when pup doesn't want more.
Training - Touching the puppy and 3-4 times with "leave it" command.
Goal - to reduce food aggression and to be able to ignore the "item/food" when command is given.

Dinner
Location - Feeding in pen area
Method- Hand feeding by either husband/wife from smallest to biggest. Stopping when pup doesn't want more.
Training - Touching the puppy and 3-4 times with "leave it" command.
Goal - to reduce food aggression and to be able to ignore the "item/food" when command is given.

Note: "Leave it" command will be practice as a part of living with us from now.

 

[musicdeb]

Your routine looks good. Remember to praise him when he does what you want him to do.

Learn his body language so you know when he's going to go into guard mode, i.e. body will stiffen, he will fixate on one object/person, tail may wag very fast from side to side, and/or ears will come forward. Each pup is different but those are the general signs. Once he goes into guard mode, use the "leave it."

One final note, your pup is new to your environment and he could be stressed due to the change. He needs time to adjust and settle in.

Bond with him by hand feeding him. brushing him, walking him once he's had his 3rd round of shots out in public (human park, neighborhood), sitting with him, and loving him.

 

[corsotx]

update - Day 5

Morning routine worked as planned. Puppy was told to a "leave it" command for a small piece of meat and was immediately praised and rewarded by bigger meat.

I noticed that the puppy does not eat as much still and was always dealing with hiccup. Is this normal?