19 Week Old EM Biting

[marke]

first of all , i think anyone that's had a 19 week old puppy and kids has had that problem ......... i agree with dennas mom , don't let the kids and pup get in those situations , at least as little as possible . redirect , or distract the pup to something else when it happens ...... some dogs are mouthier than others , assuming yours is , it just takes longer , it'll be a work in progress until he's grown , when he gets his adult teeth it'll be less dangerous for the kids ....... if he's a hard dog that really likes to bite , being an EM i doubt he is , you may need to do something more aggressive like Gilles said ..... EM's are normally pretty soft dogs and don't require much in the way of corrections ......... you don't want to be any more aggressive than need be ........JMO

 

[gilles]

first of all , i think anyone that's had a 19 week old puppy and kids has had that problem ......... i agree with dennas mom , don't let the kids and pup get in those situations , at least as little as possible . redirect , or distract the pup to something else when it happens ...... some dogs are mouthier than others , assuming yours is , it just takes longer , it'll be a work in progress until he's grown , when he gets his adult teeth it'll be less dangerous for the kids ....... if he's a hard dog that really likes to bite , being an EM i doubt he is , you may need to do something more aggressive like Gilles said ..... EM's are normally pretty soft dogs and don't require much in the way of corrections ......... you don't want to be any more aggressive than need be ........JMO

exactly..i had some nice calm puppies and some that are very strong headed... but in the end and with different techniques and patience all ended up with the same desired result and behavior.the problem here is that kids are involved, and kids when afraid, will reinforce the mouthy behavior of the dog ..this is a special situation which i think might consider a slightly more aggressive or affirmative (not violent ) measures.

 

[gilles]

but no advice is good enough without seeing and visiting the dog, i have learned that owners often unintentionally either exaggerate the situation and the behavior of their dogs or on the contrary they make it less important..you cannot count on an owner assessment that could be biased.

 

[gilles]

I don't watch TV show trainers. And I'm not really here to get in a p***ing match with you. I've dealt with aggressive dogs. Including one who put a child in the hospital needing reconstructive facial surgery.You know why that's not the point? That's not what OP is dealing with. OP is dealing with a mouthing puppy. Not a dangerous dog who needs intervention and extreme training methods. You know what the best way to turn a puppy into an aggressive dog is? To listen to your advice and to deal out physical punishments like throwing a chain at its face in response to regular behaviors.

the method described if done properly is far from being extreme ..prongs are much more extreme..anyway i am not debating anymore this issue each has his opinion, then be it

 

[Vantage]

OP in my opinion I would go with some of the earlier advice you received, being, simply say "Ouch" when he nips at you. They will know that is something they should not be doing over time, as it is in their nature to nip at each other. It is up to us to teach them that our hands or clothes are not meant to be bitten. Then redirect with a toy, or just continue to play with them.

You can not really correct a puppy that does not know any better. You have not taught the puppy that bitting/nipping is a NO-GO, thus correcting the puppy will not be the most beneficial thing to do. Simply saying Ouch, or No, is more than enough for most puppies. Remember you have to practice this over and over before they begin to understand the concept.

If you were to say it was a 19MONTH* old then maybe correcting/different training methods may be considered, but no point in correcting something when they don't even know they're doing something wrong.

 

[Vantage]

Ps. It is just as important to teach the children how to react and interact with the puppy, as it is to teach the puppy not to bite or nibble on you.

 

[marke]

i would question how effective ouch or no are by themselves , unless the pup knew what no meant in that situation ........i've seen a pup have another pup screaming/yelping from biting them , only to have it excite the pup doing the biting to bite or shake harder .... imo , you can absolutely correct a pup , it's how they learn ........ if i see a pup peeing in the house , i'll say no and scoop the pup up and take it outside , the pup didn't like being scooped up and figures out real quick it doesn't happen when he pees outside , that pup was corrected ...... i've pried pups off my clothes telling them no as much as i've just distracted them into doing something else , both imo were as important of learning experiences ......

 

[gilles]

marke is right if you only say no even if its loud the pup could interpret this as a game...thus to confirm and affirm your NO and give it a meaning i use the chain .....but not in their faces after few times only the sound of the chain with a NO is enough and after that just a NO. a chain is like a remote controlling device noit a direct physical contact like the prong or choke or even a slap.. the dog will dislike the chain but not you since after he obeys a NO you directly pet him and treat him: bad behavior =bad Chain......still good master..

 

[Hiraeth]

Or you can simply redirect to a toy without saying "no", yelping, or hitting the dog with a chain.

But you know, why use force free methods that work when you can simply scare your puppy into behaving?

 

[gilles]

Or you can simply redirect to a toy without saying "no", yelping, or hitting the dog with a chain. But you know, why use force free methods that work when you can simply scare your puppy into behaving?

you can do that .. each dog responds to a way ( and please for the last time i never said to HIT the dog with the chain)for example if i use the shaker can with my dogs they will like it and may want to play it would be a treat for them...for other dogs its terrifying ...if yelping works then great

 

[Boxergirl]

get a choke chain and tuck it in your hand, as he tries to bite you say NO and throw the chain on him , the metallic sound will stop him.

Just for the sake of clarity - this was the original statement. To throw the chain ON him. I read that to mean throw the chain at the dog, thereby hitting the dog with the chain. Is that not what you meant? Perhaps I misunderstood.

 

[season]

Or you can simply redirect to a toy without saying "no", yelping, or hitting the dog with a chain.

But you know, why use force free methods that work when you can simply scare your puppy into behaving?

You're being dramatic. If saying No to a dog is bad and scaring the dog then so be it. Call me Freddy Kruger.

 

[marke]

to redirect without a correction is pretty much just waiting for the behavior to go away on it's own , and it often does..... it's like ignoring it ,the dog doesn't get any enjoyment out of it and just quits ...... there are some dogs you can't even teach to bite if you wanted too , then there are others that are born instinctive biters you can't stop them it's like ocd ............ if one of my 3-4 yr old kids is hitting the other and i simply call the one doing the hitting over and distract him , what did i teach him ????? i see they have a modern better approach to raising kids now also , i'm not seeing any results i find impressive .... there are more little kids today on psychotropic meds than ever , by far ........

 

[teodora]

I'm not hitting or being harsh to my dogs or my kids but yeah I totally agree that spoiling them rotten doesn't do any goods. And I see BOTH kids and dogs spoiled beyond belief.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[season]

to redirect without a correction is pretty much just waiting for the behavior to go away on it's own , and it often does..... it's like ignoring it ,the dog doesn't get any enjoyment out of it and just quits ...... there are some dogs you can't even teach to bite if you wanted too , then there are others that are born instinctive biters you can't stop them it's like ocd ............ if one of my 3-4 yr old kids is hitting the other and i simply call the one doing the hitting over and distract him , what did i teach him ????? i see they have a modern better approach to raising kids now also , i'm not seeing any results i find impressive .... there are more little kids today on psychotropic meds than ever , by far ........

Well said. Yeah, the whole "Self Esteem" movement has worked wonders hasn't it?

 

[Joao M]

I'm not hitting or being harsh to my dogs or my kids but yeah I totally agree that spoiling them rotten doesn't do any goods. And I see BOTH kids and dogs spoiled beyond belief. Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

But at least that guarantees the jobs of the child psychologists and dog behaviorists ...

 

[season]

but at least that guarantees the jobs of the child psychologists and dog behaviorists ...

amen!

 

[Hiraeth]

I'm not hitting or being harsh to my dogs or my kids but yeah I totally agree that spoiling them rotten doesn't do any goods. And I see BOTH kids and dogs spoiled beyond belief. Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

This is an exaggeration. My dogs aren't "spoiled rotten". There are rules and boundaries within my home that are reinforced with training. I set my dogs up for success by training into them behaviors that directly counteract behaviors I don't want to see.

It certainly takes a heck of a lot more work than yelling at them every time they do something wrong, trust me.

Here's a fun quote: "The better you are at controlling reinforcement, the less you will need punishment in training.

In order to train to a high level of success in dog training, reinforcement is a key requirement. Dogs learn through reinforcement. If the dog has been allowed to continuously find reinforcement in ways that builds undesirable behaviours, then you either have to find something more rewarding (which may not be possible) or punish. No other options really. So here is what excites me;

The more creative you can become at developing, redirecting and controlling the reinforcement, the less you need punishment." -- Susan Garrett

Punishment and corrections are the result of sloppy and ineffecient training. If a dog is efficiently trained and all undesired behaviors and unwanted interactions are accounted for ahead of time with positively reinforced commands, corrections aren't necessary.

I don't use corrections because I don't expect my dogs to problem solve for me. Correcting a dog puts the onus on the dog. It says "you did something wrong, I'm telling you 'no', you do the problem solving and figure out what you should do differently next time". Which is silly, because we're asking the dog to be the critical thinker, which sometimes works and sometimes fails. As engaged and critically thinking human trainers, we should be saying "my dog did something wrong, what can I do to instill a different behavior so that this doesn't happen again?"

Redirecting a mouthy puppy to a toy is instilling a different and wanted behavior. "NO" means nothing to a mouthing puppy unless there's a forceful behavior paired with the "NO" to teach the puppy that "NO" means 'stop right now or there's a punishment'.

 

[marke]

In order to train to a high level of success in dog training, reinforcement is a key requirement. Dogs learn through reinforcement.

obviously reinforcement plays a key role in learning , The highest level trained dogs I can think of are seeing eye dogs , police and military K-9’s , all trained with reward and corrections ……..there is no way it does not produce a more reliable behavior

I don't use corrections because I don't expect my dogs to problem solve for me. Correcting a dog puts the onus on the dog. It says "you did something wrong, I'm telling you 'no', you do the problem solving and figure out what you should do differently next time". Which is silly, because we're asking the dog to be the critical thinker

that is so true for this correction-less method of training , your not telling the dog which behavior is inappropriate , your leaving it up to the dog to figure it out ……… to me , common sense would be to show them what’s right and whats wrong , way simpler for the dog ……. Maybe that’s why my dogs can be loose when I’m not around ? or survive being unattended in the yard …….

Redirecting a mouthy puppy to a toy is instilling a different and wanted behavior. "NO" means nothing to a mouthing puppy unless there's a forceful behavior paired with the "NO" to teach the puppy that "NO" means 'stop right now or there's a punishment'.

what different and wanted behavior are you instilling , if it’s a dog that really likes to bite , they’re still biting ???? how are you teaching them to differentiate between what they bite ? much simpler just to tell them , rather than relying on some convoluted logical progression the dog needs to work through …….

As engaged and critically thinking human trainers, we should be saying "my dog did something wrong, what can I do to instill a different behavior so that this doesn't happen again?"

my guess would be let them know what they did wrong , and reward them for what they do right ....... i assure you for some of the things we think a dog does wrong they don't think there is anything wrong with it , there is no counter right behavior , they just need not to do it ...... from what i've seen , the dog just needs to know that some things are just wrong to do ....... probably why my dogs have never needed 24/7 supervision , they know what's not acceptable ..... folks advocating corrections are detrimental to a dog tend to use the terms yelling , hitting and scaring , i have to wonder why that would be ? maybe it's the background they came from ?

 

[season]

"So this is why I’m writing this. There’s a battle being waged currently in the dog world. A battle where the Purely Positive/Force Free folks purport your dog’s welfare to be the priority, but the reality is unfortunately something very different. It’s a battle that prioritizes dogma over dogs. Ideology over actual welfare. Agenda over answers. It’s a weird thing to see a large group of folks, who present themselves as dog lovers, leading a charge that ignores tangible reality in favor of a belief system, and sacrifices dogs in the name of science and academia and supposed higher morals. But here’s the thing, you’ll never see these folks – not the well-respected and highly-lauded trainer/authors, not the veterinary behaviorists, none of these folks with credentials coming out their ears – show real-life work and real-life results with truly challenging dogs. It simply doesn’t exist. They can’t show results. They never have. Not with serious dogs. Because it’s all talk. Convenient, well-crafted, smart-sounding, intellectually stimulating, brain-twisting, heart-tugging talk. Talk that is based on manipulating data and cherry picking the science that supports their cause, while ignoring that which doesn’t. Talk that is completely devoid of reality and results, as well as true care, for dogs or owners. (The knowledge of Pure Positive/Force Free trainers recommending even mildly challenging dogs to be put down is legendary, and heart breaking in the dog training world.)"- Sean O'Shea