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Designer dogs-this makes me mad!!

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
If you have a Health Cert from a vet for the pup that means that a vet has checked the pup over and he's not obviously sick and has received any vaccines appropriate for his age. Thats ALL it is. It has nothing to do with any health testing the parents may or may not have gone through.

And the AKC doesn't REQUIRE any health testing or certs, it just requires breeders to follow the laws of the state and country, which means health certs for dogs before crossing state lines and before sale.
 

cayeesmom

Well-Known Member
Dude, your pup isn't even a six months yet, you have NO WAY of knowing how much protective or aggressive drive is going to show up.

Agree 100 %,
My first dog was a Golden /Lab mix. He ended up looking like a black golden at 80 lbs, very mellow. His sister on the other hand grow up looking like a pure 60lbs Lab with the high energy!

My current "mutt" Luke at 8 months has the height of the EM, are super friendly, but have some of characteristics of the Fila. I do not expect to know exactly "what I have" until he is fully grown mentally and physically.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
If you have a Health Cert from a vet for the pup that means that a vet has checked the pup over and he's not obviously sick and has received any vaccines appropriate for his age. Thats ALL it is. It has nothing to do with any health testing the parents may or may not have gone through.

Unfortunately I have the experience to back up this statement. My purebred EM came from parents that were not fully tested but the vet declared healthy. He was declared perfectly healthy. At 15 months he was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia, a painful condition that may have been avoided by checking to ensure that the elbows on both parents were healthy. IMO anyone that chooses to breed but does not get the recommended tests completed is not truly interested in the well being of the pups but just trying to save their own pocket books.
 

Mjunior

Member
Well if your dog got ill its probably because they are inbred over and over again and the gene pool is too small to support continued breeding of purebreds over and over again. That really is not something that is up for debate. To debate it is ludicrous. Its simply a fact on planet earth that when you don't alter the gene pool the species become sick over time. If you try and debate this I cannot even answer your reply because its something that everyone know and is common knowledge. Seriously, if you try and debate that I will skip over the post.

Further more, the way we got the breeds we have today is by mixing breeds. How could you possibly say its not good to mix breed when you would not even have a pure breed unless they did mix breeds? So silly. There us really no debate here at all. The breeds have to change or they will fall apart. Everyone has to rely on breeders to test the dogs and the individual.

The change in what is a purebred is going to happen weather anyone likes it or not. There is nothing anyone can do about that its just a fact.
I
already told you my dog was tested and then you said no he was not. Well I cant really reply to that. You said he is still a pup, I dont recall telling anyone his age. So if you call me a liar and make assumptions were not really having a conversation anymore are we? I WONT BE BACK.
Good day
 

Doggyhelpplease

Well-Known Member
This is not a "planet gentic rule" ....Its simply a fact on planet earth that when you don't alter the gene pool the species become sick over time.

My masters was in genetics and you sound crazy. You are looking at it too simplified. It may appear in some circumstances that is what is happening but it is not, it is due to many factors.
 

Smokeycat

Well-Known Member
Wow. The way that last post reads to me Mjunior is that you got as far as Kryten being a purebred EM and jumped on your soapbox of mixed breeds being healthier because nowhere in that post was mixed vs pure brought up. I was agreeing with a previous posters comment that a vet saying the parents are healthy is not the same as genetic testing and X-rays saying they are healthy. Since this argument is apparently unpalatable to you I wish you good luck with your cross breed. Enjoy him and as an FYI only 50% of the dogs needing orthopedic surgery on the group I'm part of due to my dogs condition are purebred.
 
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northernmastiff

Well-Known Member
Well if your dog got ill its probably because they are inbred over and over again and the gene pool is too small to support continued breeding of purebreds over and over again. That really is not something that is up for debate. To debate it is ludicrous. Its simply a fact on planet earth that when you don't alter the gene pool the species become sick over time. If you try and debate this I cannot even answer your reply because its something that everyone know and is common knowledge. Seriously, if you try and debate that I will skip over the post.

Further more, the way we got the breeds we have today is by mixing breeds. How could you possibly say its not good to mix breed when you would not even have a pure breed unless they did mix breeds? So silly. There us really no debate here at all. The breeds have to change or they will fall apart. Everyone has to rely on breeders to test the dogs and the individual.

The change in what is a purebred is going to happen weather anyone likes it or not. There is nothing anyone can do about that its just a fact.
I
already told you my dog was tested and then you said no he was not. Well I cant really reply to that. You said he is still a pup, I dont recall telling anyone his age. So if you call me a liar and make assumptions were not really having a conversation anymore are we? I WONT BE BACK.
Good day

First, it is whether so if you are going to debate a point, spell check. Second, no one is saying breeds are not inbred. That is a problem that breeders are trying to correct by expanding the gene pool. They study their dog's lineage and try to find lines that are not closely related. While this is not completely related, some studies have found that children born of 3rd cousins are actually healthier than those of two strangers. Third, if we are looking at humans, the vast majority of us have inbred genes in our lineage, http://io9.com/5863666/why-inbreeding-really-isnt-as-bad-as-you-think-it-is. Not that I promote inbreeding but since we started with small population bases, it was inevitable that our ancestors were inbred.

Second, no one is saying that something is wrong with mixing breeds. Unfortunately, many people are doing it for the wrong reason. Breeds were created because they wanted a purpose. Take the Bullmastiff. They wanted a guarding dog that was silent and had the strength to hold a poacher. They were gamewarden dogs and were created by crossing 40% Olde English Bulldog and 60% Mastiff. They had a purpose.

While labradoodles started out for a good reason, originally developed for working with blind people who had allergies, they were a failed breed. Only 1 coat type, which is actually one of the rarest coat types in the labradoodle is hypoallergenic. In addition, the temperaments were not sound so the original developer of labradoodles gave up on the breeding. However, there are some breeders who are trying to get the breed accepted as a foundation stock. So what they are doing now is breeding labradoodle to labradoodle. They are no longer breeding Lab to Poodle as they need the dog to breed true to type. Some of the other "designer" breeds are doing the same and it is just backyard breeders who are still doing first generation doodles.

Goldendors (Lab x Golden) are hybrids and from what I have read and heard about the breed, they are one of the most unhealthy breeds you can bring home. They have it all from HD to vonwillebrands disease.

Many breeders of designer breeds are doing it without care or thought. They just want the quick buck and are banking on people purchasing for the latest trend. That is why designer breeds are one of the top breeds exploited by puppy mills.

Adding mixed breeds into a purebred breed is not going to save the breed. It creates something new. In fact, many breeds are still struggling to remove the last "fix" from their lines. English Mastiffs have a fluffy gene that is due to adding St. Bernard into the line. The monks who bred St. Bernards are still trying to remove the influence of Newfoundland from their lines and if I remember correctly, they only breed shorthaired lines (I may be wrong with this so excuse me if I am).

Your dog may have been tested but even dogs that have cleared vigorous health tests can get sick eventually. My dog Petey has had eye clearances since he was a puppy. At 10, I have to take him in for his eyes and we suspect he may be going blind. It could be an inherent trait or it could be old age. This is a dog that has passed all his health clearances with flying colors.

Also, hybrid vigor, while not a complete myth, is seen more frequently in second or third generation mixes. Heinz 57's if you will. Lastly, just because you have a mixed breed does not mean that you are not going to have health issues in your dog. Whether you have a mixed breed or a purebreed, you are going to be faced with the challenges of dog ownership and that can, very well, mean health problems.
 
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ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Well if your dog got ill its probably because they are inbred over and over again and the gene pool is too small to support continued breeding of purebreds over and over again. That really is not something that is up for debate. To debate it is ludicrous. Its simply a fact on planet earth that when you don't alter the gene pool the species become sick over time. If you try and debate this I cannot even answer your reply because its something that everyone know and is common knowledge. Seriously, if you try and debate that I will skip over the post.

Further more, the way we got the breeds we have today is by mixing breeds. How could you possibly say its not good to mix breed when you would not even have a pure breed unless they did mix breeds? So silly. There us really no debate here at all. The breeds have to change or they will fall apart. Everyone has to rely on breeders to test the dogs and the individual.

The change in what is a purebred is going to happen weather anyone likes it or not. There is nothing anyone can do about that its just a fact.
I
already told you my dog was tested and then you said no he was not. Well I cant really reply to that. You said he is still a pup, I dont recall telling anyone his age. So if you call me a liar and make assumptions were not really having a conversation anymore are we? I WONT BE BACK.
Good day


Well first off, you've stated his age in other threads on this forum, and if you really think I can't make a connection between posts you make in other threads and this thread there's something seriously wrong with your train of logic....

You didn't say he was health tested, you said he has a health cert. Which (again) is not the same thing as health testing. AND, I didn't say that your PUP should have been health tested, I asked if his PARENTS and GRANDPARENTS were health tested. At less than 6months of age your pup CANNOT be health tested for the large majority of health tests.

As for the rest of your argument, you really need to do more research before you make those assumptions. There ARE some breeds that have such an incredibly small gene pool that they are likely looking at extinction in the distant future if some sort of carefull outcrossing isn't done. But there really aren't that many breeds where thats the truth. For the majority of the dog breeds out there, there is PLENTY of genetic diversity within the breed. There are unfortunetly alot of breeders who aren't taking full advantage of that diversity, but its there to be used.
 

Bellatrix

New Member
Personally I think that mixes serve a purpose; the problem is when someone does it for money not results. Case and point a bull-mastiff. One of the dog breeds that I considered was a english bull dog and beagle mix, which from a right breeder makes the paws larger than a beagle and the nose is longer to prevent cleft disease and problems. I know I wouldn't want either breed pure breed but that I was going to take a chance on temperament and personality, which ultimately lead me to prefer an EM. I think personal responsibility for the limitation and preservation of animals has been disrespected by the people who breed them just to breed them with out consideration for health (genetics, purpose and limitation).
 

stephanieb

Well-Known Member
We also have an English/bull mastiff mix. And she is amazing. Bat shit crazy as a puppy but at almost 2 I have to say probably the most loving and responsive dog we have ever had. Congratulations on finding a dog that is right for you and welcome to the Board!!
Well if your dog got ill its probably because they are inbred over and over again and the gene pool is too small to support continued breeding of purebreds over and over again. That really is not something that is up for debate. To debate it is ludicrous. Its simply a fact on planet earth that when you don't alter the gene pool the species become sick over time. If you try and debate this I cannot even answer your reply because its something that everyone know and is common knowledge. Seriously, if you try and debate that I will skip over the post.

Further more, the way we got the breeds we have today is by mixing breeds. How could you possibly say its not good to mix breed when you would not even have a pure breed unless they did mix breeds? So silly. There us really no debate here at all. The breeds have to change or they will fall apart. Everyone has to rely on breeders to test the dogs and the individual.

The change in what is a purebred is going to happen weather anyone likes it or not. There is nothing anyone can do about that its just a fact.
I
already told you my dog was tested and then you said no he was not. Well I cant really reply to that. You said he is still a pup, I dont recall telling anyone his age. So if you call me a liar and make assumptions were not really having a conversation anymore are we? I WONT BE BACK.
Good day