I'm getting frustrated with the lack of response

[chuckorlando]

hahahahahahahaha.

 

[angelbears]

Catia,

I to am reading a lot of resentment, fear and just plain anxiety. I truly think it would be better for Tessa, to be rehomed. It would be much easier on her if you did it sooner rather than later.

I have Fila's and I'm getting older. My biggest fear is having to call EMS. Luckily, I have a partner and when she is at work during the day, my son is about 20 minutes away. So, hopefully someone could get here and either secure my dogs or drag my fat ass outside. Even though I have fallen in love with the Fila breed. I know that the two I have now will be my last. Some dogs are just not right for certain situations.

I wish you all the best but I'm not a people person, I'm a dog person. Tessa deserves a home that understands and desires her personality.

Flame away!

 

[CeeCee]

Hi Catia,

If you're concerned with Tessa's gait or any underlying medical issues, I would strongly recommend that, if you can, you find a holistic vet and have them look at her.

I asked our HV to take a look at Zeek's gait when our conventional vet didn't see any problems. (Don't get me wrong, I love our CV, but the CV and the HV just see the world differently.) She immediately saw that he was weak on his right side and that it wasn't skeletal, but rather due to weak ligaments. In addition to herbal treatments, she does acupuncture on him.

I was blown away with the results. Not only is his peg legged gait diminishing, but his whole demeanor has changed. It's like he's all of the sudden comfortable in his skin. At daycare, Zeek liked to separate himself from the pack after awhile and would sit in under a tree and just watch the action. I never thought anything of it and just thought that was Zeek's style. After the first acupuncture treatment, the daycare owner reported that Zeek is much more relaxed in the yard, is staying with the group, and doesn't go hang under under "his tree" very often.

It's like Zeek just exhaled and everything he was holding in was released.

We drive an hour and half to see our HV, but, for us, it's worth it.

 

[cayeesmom]

Caysee does your pup walk with both left then both right? If so thats the fila slut walk. Very scientific term coined by anglebears. AHAHAHAHA. Camel's gate is what it is

No chuck, no camel gait on a daily basis but have seen it a couple of times, when he was younger, now I do not pay that much attention, he is what he is,lol

 

[mx5055]

Catia,

I to am reading a lot of resentment, fear and just plain anxiety. I truly think it would be better for Tessa, to be rehomed. It would be much easier on her if you did it sooner rather than later.

I have Fila's and I'm getting older. My biggest fear is having to call EMS. Luckily, I have a partner and when she is at work during the day, my son is about 20 minutes away. So, hopefully someone could get here and either secure my dogs or drag my fat ass outside. Even though I have fallen in love with the Fila breed. I know that the two I have now will be my last. Some dogs are just not right for certain situations.

I wish you all the best but I'm not a people person, I'm a dog person. Tessa deserves a home that understands and desires her personality.
Flame away!

I agree with you ab. I don't think there is any need for flaming; I think we are just offering our own opinions like everyone else is doing. I just want a happy outcome for both Catia and Tessa.

 

[Catia]

Quote:
"I to am reading a lot of resentment, fear and just plain anxiety" Unquote

Yes,--exactly--fear and just plain anxiety those are definately here, & raw & open--this is my reality, Tessa's reality.

It isn't pretty, but it is REAL.

Though I'm not so sure about the resentment.
I don't resent Tessa in the least, she is such a bundle of love & joy.
I don't even resent the situation.

The situation, it just plain sucks--it was an unfortunate occurance, an accident.
I don't blame anyone. Everyone involved was trying to resue an innocent puppy.

I do however feel my heart is being broken, & no one likes that feeling.
And yes, there's a lot of emotion & coming to terms & conflict & flip flopping.
I've had little time for the learning curve, & it HURTS & I feel powerless.

If Tessa is TM, this is the best place I could possibly be, I do not doubt that for a minute.
So for this place--I am very fortuneate.

I *have listened* to what other TM owners have said, & I have taken it seriously, & I am taking the steps I am capable of taking to find out for sure.

Imagine if Tessa is part TM & I just continued to think she was a retriever or rottie mix, the pain & heartache this could cause to some innocent person who got hurt as a result.

I have a health condition that isn't going to allow me to have a pooch with a TM's guardian instinct. This is a fact.
I don't have something simple that is easily controllable even with meds.
I have to wear a medic bracelet & carry an emergency injection kit every where I go, 24/7, including just on a walk with my dog around the block.
I have friends that have keys to my home in the event I don't respond to a phone call, people pop in & check up on me from time to time, & I also use a dog walking service 5 days per week while I am at work for mid day walks that cannot guarantee the same person. Not to mention when I needed EMS.

Just for the record, I did not go into this looking for a TM, the thought never crossed my mind. I knew nothing of the breed.
I wanted a dopey lovable mellow mix of a larger size, a companion, & I went to an animal welfare league.

The chances of Tessa being TM are like a one in a million or more chance, but it might have happened.

And for everyone's sake mixed up in this, I'm going to find out, because it is the right thing to do.
The technology is there.

I could just as easily dismiss the situation, stick my head in the sand & hope for the best.
I'm just not that irresponsible.
For $80, I will KNOW
--& yes, Wisdom Panel 2.0 does cover TM, & apparently TM genetics are extremely different & not easily mistaken.
here is a list: http://www.wisdompanel.com/breed_count_matters/breeds_detected/


My intention is for this thread to be honest to the core.

I have listened & I do fully agree that no-one without a ton of experience with guardian breeds, & a very stable type of home life should ever own a TM, I am not that person.
I have too many risk factors that would set a TM up for an epic fail.

This thread may enlighten some one who is thinking about getting a TM think a bit harder-and reassess their situation fully. These are beautiful dogs, no doubt, it is sooo easy to just fall in love with their appearance.
Having any pooch is a huge responsibility to begin with, having a guardian instinct as deeply bred as a TM is a responsibilty on a different level.
I do not posess what it takes to own a TM.

 

[Catia]

And on a lighter note LOL on the "camel gate" count Tessa in.

She does "shake that ass" as well, it's not necessarily a slutty walk-yet-...she's still a pup.

 

[cayeesmom]

Catia
Glad to hear the Wisdompanel covers TM, we offer it at work, only knew it does not cover all breeds yet. I hope you did not misunderstand my post, English is not my first language and sometimes what I try to say is not matching how I write it. All I can say is I understand your anxiety and I wish you and Tessa the best.

 

[Catia]

cayeesmom--thank you, & no problems understanding your post.

 

[chuckorlando]

ahahahahahahaha. Awesome.

And on a lighter note LOL on the "camel gate" count Tessa in.

She does "shake that ass" as well, it's not necessarily a slutty walk-yet-...she's still a pup.

 

[Catia]

Tessa has had 3 professional behavioral assessments, by 2 different trainers, since she was 11 weeks old.
3rd one was today, he had not seen her since she was 11 weeks old, so he already had a baseline.

I dropped by his business unannounced to discuss puppy & then possible additional obedience training & explained the situation to him, & explained my concerns about Tessa & asked if he had any experience with TM's or could put me in touch with any local owners.
Of course he said finding a TM owner local might be a long shot, he doesn't know of any in the area.

I asked if he knows people who have independent guardian type breeds, & he himself has an Anatolian Shepherd, along with quite a few other dogs & also rescues (he owns a doggie daycare & boarding/training facility). He has some german short haired pointers trained as service dogs as well, OMG are they so beautiful-but too energetic for me.

Anyway, I voiced my concerns about independents & guarding & he said if the dog is of good temperament & socialized properly, when a guardian does actually make the decision to act, usually there's be ample warning & also, as a general rule, a well socialized & trained guardian breed makes pretty good decisions.

So while we're talking, in a 8x4 foyer, dogs & people are coming in & out & he's running through some basic assessments of Tessa, her responses to me, him, strange men/women & several other dogs.

He said at 5 months I've nailed the socializing, & both puppy & basic obedience stuff already, & she does have soft mouth down very well (Tessa's mouth is not up to my soft mouth standards-but she's only 5 months & has new chompers lol so we'll keep working on that-i believe women are pickier than men when it comes to their pooch being trained & gentle).

He asked what type of behavioral problems I was having, & I said "none", I'm more concerned about being proactive & if I am in over my head if she is part TM.
I explained I know nothing about independent breeds & am concerned for when she comes more into her adulthood & the guarding instincts kick in. He said she's not reactive in any negative way he could see, so that was good & that she is very obedient for a 5 months old puppy. I said I'm pretty sure that's all Tessa naturally, & "don't kid yourself".

I can't operate well in a vacuum, so I'm out & about seeking reinforcements who actaully have experience with independent breeds, not people who just own them, but people who've actually trained them.

I'm trying to find my place & not go crazy worrying in the interim. The DNA test kit arrived today.

Also, he laughed when I said TM, said he didn't see it, & that it was too rare to be a possibility.
He said when she was younger she did look part newfie, & that he's be shocked if TM was in there at all, said he sees flat coated retriever & some rottie.
I said "well I'd not be here if I wasn't serious, I don't need anyone's help training a rottie"

I explained I think I should take her to a higher level of socilization & see what happens/how she reacts & do it regularly to be sure, that I was thinking of doing downtown during rush hour with all of the people/noises/sounds/food/traffic. (I'm a bit OCD about socialization-always have been). He said that it couldn't hurt, but that for the most part her temperament is set at her age & is good & sound.

Now I'm curious-do TM's have the same basic stages as other dogs? Meaning at 5 mos is Tessa's temperament set & everything else is just icing on the cake?
I understand TM's are slower to mature, but so are many large breeds.
Also it sounds like most guardian breeds go through a different phase when they mature, & that it's not just a TM thing.

General consensus from people who know me in real life & have met my previous pooches & pets seem to think I am not going to have an issue handling Tessa in the future even if she is TM, because I am strict & consistant with my training from the beginning.

I was reminded by my xbf that my last pooch did guard when she felt she needed to, & I was able to recall many incidences -but each one was completely justified.

I think in some ways I am equating 'independent thinking guardian dog" with "irrational aggression".
I need some help deciphering or figuring it all out.

Also trainer seems to think even if Tessa did have any TM in her, it wouldn't be purebred so not as much of an issue(he didnt see any issue actually). He did not think my living situation should pose any issue, but that i'd need to take precautions & that we should discuss it more later via appointment. I'm more concerned about my living environment & what limits I would have if she did get guardy-how would I take her out to do things?

I see people out walking their mean growling nasty dogs, it is uncomfortable for everyone, including the dog. It seems to me if the pooch felt secure, it'd not need to behave in such a way.
I her a lot from people "oh that's just the way they are", but I always wonder what went wrong to get them to that point, or do you just wake up one day to a pooch who doesn't like other people/animals?

Now of course I had a TON of questions, but while he was doing his thing with Tessa, with all of the interruptions, I didn't ask 1/2 of them.

Also, a fat kudo for Tessa, these people are coming in/out of a training facility & their dogs were, um, lets just say--disobedient in comparison.
That's where I don't ever want to be. I don't want to wake up one morning with a pooch I can't control, which is why I put so much time into the puppy stuff.
Of course she sucked attention from the passesr-by's & got an A+++ on her puppy manners.

So suggestions for things I should ask the trainer that are good to work on for an independent breed?

 

[Smokeycat]

I don't know if I believe that any dog's temperament is 'set' at 5 months. The foundation maybe but in my experience it is still developing. My EM while still being a soft temp now has his moments where he shows he is a guardian breed. Even my Irish setter/golden retriever mix became far more watchful at around a year, true it's because he thinks everyone he sees should come and play but he still changed. Can't help on how harder temp pups may change.

 

[Racer X]

I had Gaston DNA tested. The rare breeds took a special test only a Vet could so the test because it involved a blood test.
But it covered hundreds of breeds. And cost $180.00

I rescued Gaston from an abandoned house. He was purchased as a guard dog for a Drug dealer. The dealer went to jail and Gaston was left inside the house for a month.

Everyone in the neighborhood knew the dog. i even had a couple little tattooed gangsters walk up and shake my hand and thank me for rescuing him. They said they loved him.
But I also met the "breeder"
And I knew the mother. She was a Huge purebred Pressa Canario. I remember her because I had never seen a dog that big. She had 14 puppies!

The father was a black Boerboel. Also big and purebred.

I sent in the DNA test. I want to relocate Gaston to New Zealand and the Pressa is band there. So I did not give any information to the tester.
The results
Neapolitan Mastiff grand parents, bloodhound ,boxer and then terrier and about six or seven maybe on the list.

The TM being so old might show up. But don't put to much faith into the results.

Also when I found him I was terrified about having a monster in the house . I have three other dogs and six cats. He was a little over a year old when I got him. When he turned two he sorta changed. He is the most wonderful dog I have ever seen. I can't get enough of him.
It is a struggle. And it sounds like you have enough on your plate.
But you might want to get some people together and have an EMT drill. Like practice to see how she reacts. It will be different because the dogs react to smell and stress. But it might make you feel better to see how she does.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I have yet to meet a dog who's temperment is set at 5-6 months. Maybe some of the toy breeds, I've never done much with them. I think the pup's temperment at 5-6 months is foundation of his or her adult temperment, but its not set at that age, by any stretch. Heck, even medium sized breeds don't hit sexual maturity till the 7-9 month period, and that all by itself is a huge game changer.

For Tessa: if she's part TM I can't see her as a hard tempered adult. I suspect she'd be somewhere in line with Apollo or maybe a little harder, but not excessively. Just based on your descriptions of her. The problem is that each dog is an individual so I can't say that she'd be fine with a strange dog-walker when she turns 2 (for example), on the other hand she might end up being fine for 8hrs straight while you're gone. Apollo's done it with no problems. Its defiently not un-reasoning irrational aggression. You'd still be able to walk her down the street and take her on outings, but you also learn to watch her signals for "bad person" ahead. My big concern is the risk if you collapse and she's presented with strangers with weird gear who intend to help you.....SOME TMs have prooven able to understand that the EMTs are there to help, but some don't.

Nor is it a drastic "one morning" change. IF she's TM you'll gradually see an increase in guardyness, you'll notice her being extra alert to things, and alerting verbally to strange noises or people. At that point you start working with her on an "its ok, I see it" sort of command, to let her know that you see the problem, and you'll take care of it. It DOES come in stages, where there's a noticeable increase during that time period, but its not a drastic "one morning" sort of change, well, unless you're totally not paying attention to your dog.

 

[thelady_v2010]

Do you live in a small town or a big city?

If it were me, i would take the dog to the local fire/EMT station. In big cities, fire stations have areas. I would talk to them and let her smell all the stuff. Tell them your issues. My husband is a firefighter/EMT. People walk in all the time, for various reasons. (Sadly, a lot of arsonists hang around). And I would take her regularly. She is bound to hear them have to leave, or return. Fire fighters don't gear up for medical calls, they don't put the suit and masks on. They just come in their uniform, carrying equipment. At my husband's firehouse, they track dogs that have aggression issues (not that Tessa has them), but they do have a white board and they write issue houses down (issues with aggressive humans as well). They could write that maybe only 2 come in at the start of the call instead of 5-6 guys coming in the door. I am only speaking for how a big city fire house runs, a smaller one may run differently, but I cannot see the harm in going to speak to them.

 

[Catia]

The lady--
that's a good piece of useful advice that I am going to add immediately--Thank you!! I just never would have considered it.

--Tessa has actually been to the fire station twice already--it's only about 15 min walk- they LOVE her, she gets ice water & super rubs-they fawn over her--but I never thought of desensitizing her to the gear & uniforms & noises & all.

Also, the police station was recently relocated to 2 city blocks down the street, they're pretty busy, but I have an old friend down there I can bring it up to & see what I can do.

I am in the city, pretty rough neighborhood, so certain guardian aspects are really beginning to appeal to me.

Hardest thing to wrap my head around is the "independent thinking" dog breed thing.
I work with the public (which is why I avoid people now)
I can't get the 'effin public to think independently about their own circumstances, but a dog apparently can???
I've gotta get to a point where I understand how that works & see where my comfort level is with it.

Then there's the splitting hairs between what is an aggressive dog & what is a guardian dog.
I could use some good examples, in realistic situations.

Part of the reason I'm stressed is also, for 3 years, I lived acrosss the street from a dog that had 23 attacks, owner had 18 citations & owner even did 90 days in jail for not surrendering the dog. He fought this dog & bragged about it.
Then TWICE he went to a pound & adopted a female of the same breed & surrendered that innocent dog to animal control instead. He bragged about that too.
So then they'd close the case-since they thought the dog was euthanized.
This whole neighborhood berzerked trying to get this handled. It took police, animal control, magistrate & the local news, state reps, & in the end-the ONLY reason the dog was actually siezed & put down was because it broke out of the basement while the owner was in jail.
The attacks were on both dogs & children over 2 summers. The injuries on the kids were minor, but most of the dogs died, took down & gutted a dane right in front of my house, $2k in surgery didn't save her.
It even came through my front doors after my 110 lb female, but never got a grip on her, so, I had a few years where I lived in fear with good reason, like a prisoner in my own home.

I've never been one to be afraid of dogs, still am not, but those years changed my life, it was right across the street daily.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I went over this in the PM a bit, but here too:

A "purely aggressive" dog doesn't care who you are, what you're doing, or why you're there. They're going to attack you or not as they feel like based on criteria they may not even understand themselves. These dogs are usually the result of one of a few things: massive lack of socialization, very bad handling (abuse), or a medical problem. I consider "teaching" a dog to fight and attack in such a manner to be abuse.

A "Guardian" dog does not randomly attack, and can be safely walked through a crowd with no aggression. However if threat is given they WILL remove the threat, and do so in an aggressive manor. These dogs are often not "friendly" in the sense that they often don't seek out attention from non-family, and are often not enthusiastic about meeting new people. There are of course variations with individual breeds and dogs. However to the general public, who doesn't understand these dogs, and doesn't "get" them, they often appear "rude" and highly unfriendly, and on the occasion where the dog feels protection is needed they can be percieved as very aggressive. There is a common thought process that a dog who's not friendly is a "bad dog", its a peeve of mine and drives me nuts. These dogs also tend to not tolerate drunks, especially drunk strangers. I think they can sense that the person is impaired and thus un-predictable.

The line between "aggressive" and "guardian" dogs is further muddied by Fila's, who simply see every stranger as a threat. But Tessa's definetly not part Fila, so we don't have to go there.

And example.....

Well, take Apollo, who's a fairly soft tempered TM. By "soft" I mean that his meter for determining threat is high, it takes alot to trip it so that he does more than verbally alert to it.

He loves every dog he meets, big or small. Infact he adores small dogs. He doesn't care if they bark at him, or growl at him, he loves them. Unless they growl at ME, then they are warned off, and he has attempted to back up that verbal warning with one pipsqueek who didn't take it.

He's quite tolerant of people walking on the street by our property, he watches them yes, but unless they're acting weird he's tolerant. If they're acting weird he verbally alerts. And, well, I told you about the drunk lady the other night....

 

[Catia]

Tessa got a good hearty romping with a big boy today who would actually wrestle with her.
Of course he gave her puppy pass for the most of it, but he rolled her when he felt she over stepped lol.

I got to see something pretty cool in a gentle guarding way today during her play with another pooch.
This was a big black lab mix, & his owners were there with their young son.
I swear this lab is part mastiff, especially looking at his head, it's huge, but he's unaltered, so maybe not.

Anyway, their boy actually managed to get Tessa to chase!!! Kudos to the boy!!!

But being the puppy Tessa is, & still learning her limits, she did a jump up on his side and the lab mix was having none of that, he flew to the boy, put himself in in-between & used his full body to part them & promptly corrected Tessa.

Tessa got back up and went towards the boy and he gave her a "time out", meaning he basically pushed her farther from the boy, about 10 feet--& gave Tessa a bit more correction & a roll & kept her there for a bit til he felt she'd settled down.

Tessa took it well & she didn't jump up on the boy again. Hopefully I'll meet up with them again.

Sunday I go back to the trainer for a full evaluation/assessment & consultation & we can talk about what I want to work on. I'm not sure yet what to work on. LOL how about some suggestions?

Oh, Tessa's fur is getting longer & a little wave to it as well. It's similar to rottie fur but much softer & now longer.
Her tail & tail is growing like it is a seperate animal-but nothing fluffy about the fur. She's so black where she's black & she doesn't have that funky oil feel like some rottie hair.

A woman I work with mentioned one puppy pic that is Tessa looks like her fur was clipped, & I think her foster said something about her odd puppy fur growing like it was clipped because it was very uneven.
A coworker of mine mentioned her 1st puppy pic looks like she had very short hair & looking back to it, I agree, this pic is Tessa & her sister-8.5weeks, Tessa is on the left if you are facing the pic.
It'll be curious to see how her fur turns out.

 

[ruthcatrin]

She is utterly adorable. It wouldn't surprise me if someone trimmed them, to make her look more rottie.....just out of curiosity, so you know what happened with the rest of the litter?

 

[Catia]

no, i just know the rescue I got Tessa from got the 2 girls, dunno what happened to the others.
The sister adopted out 1st--which BLOWS MY MIND cuz while they look very similar, Tessa's got "that look"--she casts a spell I tell ya! She does it to me every day.

I was told Tessa was the more mellow of the two. Her foster's thought she's make an excellent therapy dog because she's sooo mellow.

I have coined her facial markings "the reverse Groucho Marx" LOL

My coworker is convinced she was clippered, & on purpose, her theory same as yours-to make her look more rottie.
She thinks there's more to the story though. She thinks some rescue group did something somewhat shady to save the pups. I'm not so sure about all of that drama.

I personally feel Tessa was trapped, along with her litter mate.
She's got the scar on her back leg that looks just like a trap scar, like the traps that have teeth & spring shut--I've seen them before-& the way it heals -& she's so odd about having her tail touched, I think her tail was caught too. I think if she was clippered it was because she was probably matted & dirty, stinky & flea infested.
I've clippered many cats/dogs I have rescued.


Arghhh--Tessa has something stuck in the last inch of her tongue & I can't get it off-a thorn or a splinter. That tongue is always hangining out but damned if I can get her to just let me get it off.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, am back-- finally got it--believe it or not, it was the head portion of one of those big black carpenter ants-it seriously bit her tongue & stuck on, like how a stinger gets lodged--i'm sure it wasn't a tick. crazy.

Next thing I know she's gonna fart a freakin leprechaun.