I'm getting frustrated with the lack of response

[ruthcatrin]

Did you ever try peanut butter smeared inside a bowl and frozen? Or stuffable kongs with the same concept? Would that give you at least the few minutes to go to the bathroom?

 

[Catia]

Quote:
"And yup, you're right. She thinks. She remembers. She lays in wait. And she's not going to goof off infront of a stranger, or at least "non-family", cause she has to be able to watch them." Unquote

This^^^

No one believes me.
No, I do not know if Tessa is a TM or some other independent breed mix (yet)--
But this *IS* exactly what she does.

Now if trainers can't accept what I am explaining-how can I trust their instruction?

Here's an example--trainer thinks he's showing me some incredible smartness by showing me to throw a treat & say "get up" & that this will train Tessa to "get up"...
OF COURSE Tessa gets up to get the treat--EVERY TIME--Where is the rocket science?!
Of couse she gets up-she's food driven-

I try to explain to the trainer that this method is counter productive to Tessa's thinking--
Here is how Tessa works:
If I continue to use this method, Tessa will ONLY get up for food, & this reinforces the fact that she stay put unless there IS A TREAT, which is NOT how I need her to be. She isn't getting a connection to motivate to 'get up'--
Nope, Tessa knows if she doesn't listen & get up, she will be given a treat. That is how she thinks. She is patient enough to wait for the *lure* or *bribe*--because using this method, that is what the treat ultimately ends up being, a lure or bribe.
It ends up being Tessa that controlls the situation, not vice versa.

I am not against using treats-I'm all for them--but in the example above, the trainer doesn't seem to grasp my need for her to motivate to get up without always having to have food in my hand.

Simply put, he doesn't understand the reality of my world when she won't 'get up' & i do not think he has ever really deal with this issue, because mostly he is trying to teach people to get their dogs to settle down. MOST people wish their dogs would just lay down, that's a fact.

While trainer has shown me some of Tessa's subtle cues--I think he is so far off from what is really going on & is misinterperating everything.

Also, he doesn't get or believe JUST HOW OBSERVANT Tessa actually is.
I feel Tessa & I are being dismissed.

Example:
Tessa scans a new environment QUICKLY. She takes note of everything-immediately. I am telling you--she committs to memory every item she sees in a room, or at a park, I've watched her do this from the day I brought her home.

She sits or stands by me, & when Tessa feels everything is OK, with/for ME, then she will further explore, leaving my side to sniff or look.
Trainer interperates this as Tessa being distracted & not paying attention, because she is not sitting there focused & staring directly at ME.

***I think he is dead wrong***

Tessa assesses the perimeter around me 1st. I see it--and I'm the freakin dummy here on this forum, but I can see this much!!!
When she decides it's OK, then she will leave my side.

Once Tessa feels it's ok, only then she'll wander & further check out stuff.
And the perimeter gets wider as she assesses the security of it.
At no time is Tessa unaware of what I am doing even when she is not looking directly at me.
Trainer says this is not true--if her eyes are not on me, she is not focused on me.

I believe Tessa focuses 1st, makes a decision, then explores further, while maintaining focus on what I am doing even if she is not looking at me.
Each exploration gets a little further. I do not believe Tessa's exploration is her being distracted, I believe she is further assessing the environment-and I also believe the reason she is assessing the environment is specifically because she IS FOCUSED ON ME .

I believe this because I cannot sneak away from this pooch if I tried--whether her eyes are on me or not. I *Have* tested this.
She has peripheral vison, keen hearing & sense of smell--and she appears to use all of them & I can't sneak away even if she's sleeping anymore.

I get the distinct impression that the trainer thinks the above example is what I want to believe--versus what he is trying to tell me is happening. He even said almost as much.

Anyone's opinion???

In my 'last life' with a different breed of pooch, with people pleasers, I would have totally bought into:
"if the dogs eyes are not on you--they are not paying attention to you" train of thought.
Because I have even only known that type of pooch, & independent wasn't in any of my previous pooches genetics, if their eyes weren't on me they were not focused on me.

However, with Tessa, my gut is telling me this is not the case at all.

It is hard when a professional is telling you one thing, & your gut another.
Admittedly, I have no experience with independent breeds & how they work, and well,
***I***am having trouble deferring to the trainer's opinion--

My gut doesn't trust he fully "gets" what Tessa is doing.
I feel he is reading Tessa's focus as distraction.
I feel this is a huge mistake.

Also, he trains a lot of german short haired pointers & remarked about how independent of a breed they are.
I didn't know any different, so I did some reading, & unless I am mistaken, german short haired pointers are not an independent breed.
Yes, they are stubborn, but not independent, plenty of regular pooches are stubborn, doesn't mean they are independent is what I am saying.

For another example--when she is in the yard, I close the door & curtains on the sliding glass door because she will stay there watching everything inside if I do not.
She feels the vibration of my feet walking towards the door, or she smells me despite the closed door & knows when I am there. I have tried many ways to try to sneak to this closed door so I can observe her when she thinks I am not watching her--but within a few seconds-Bam! she knows I am there, even if she cannot see me.

I think despite how subtle Tessa's cues may be, even though I am not experienced with her type of breed, I think my gut is right about what she is doing--I don't think I am in denial or just wanting to think these are the things she is doing-It's what she's shown me from the beginning.

I think a distracted dog would run off exploring immediately without concern for me or my perimeter.

Also enter in the fact that trainer doesn't believe Tessa has any guardian type breed in her & because she is so low reactive, he doesn't think she'd take any aggressive action, especially how soft she is with me & in my presence.
He mentioned he thought she didn't have a guardian bone in her body...

So, there's my gut, & there's the trainer, a professional--and I'm wondering-
Is it me??? Or does he have this ALL wrong?

I think she secures my perimeter, he thinks she's distracted.
I think she's making decisions, he thinks she isn't thinking at all.
I think she's aware of my every move, & he seems to think that it's only my wishful thinking.
I also think he equates low reactivity to be non-guardian & therefore no issues.

I feel the issues I need addressed are not being taken seriously, & I went to a trainer to be proactive, & to not waste good time for additional training if Tessa is a guardian breed.

If Tessa ends up being some lab/hound mix, of course I suppose he'd be right & I will have egg all over my face.
But I don't even care about that--I care about being responsible.


But also in my gut, I don't think that's the case, because I've never seen a dog do what she does--& the only place I've read about the same things is here & on a few LGD sites.

 

[kbuchanan66]

Quote:
"And yup, you're right. She thinks. She remembers. She lays in wait. And she's not going to goof off infront of a stranger, or at least "non-family", cause she has to be able to watch them." Unquote

This^^^

No one believes me.
No, I do not know if Tessa is a TM or some other independent breed mix (yet)--
But this *IS* exactly what she does.

Now if trainers can't accept what I am explaining-how can I trust their instruction?

Here's an example--trainer thinks he's showing me some incredible smartness by showing me to throw a treat & say "get up" & that this will train Tessa to "get up"...
OF COURSE Tessa gets up to get the treat--EVERY TIME--Where is the rocket science?!
Of couse she gets up-she's food driven-

I try to explain to the trainer that this method is counter productive to Tessa's thinking--
Here is how Tessa works:
If I continue to use this method, Tessa will ONLY get up for food, & this reinforces the fact that she stay put unless there IS A TREAT, which is NOT how I need her to be. She isn't getting a connection to motivate to 'get up'--
Nope, Tessa knows if she doesn't listen & get up, she will be given a treat. That is how she thinks. She is patient enough to wait for the *lure* or *bribe*--because using this method, that is what the treat ultimately ends up being, a lure or bribe.
It ends up being Tessa that controlls the situation, not vice versa.

I am not against using treats-I'm all for them--but in the example above, the trainer doesn't seem to grasp my need for her to motivate to get up without always having to have food in my hand.

Simply put, he doesn't understand the reality of my world when she won't 'get up' & i do not think he has ever really deal with this issue, because mostly he is trying to teach people to get their dogs to settle down. MOST people wish their dogs would just lay down, that's a fact.

While trainer has shown me some of Tessa's subtle cues--I think he is so far off from what is really going on & is misinterperating everything.

Also, he doesn't get or believe JUST HOW OBSERVANT Tessa actually is.
I feel Tessa & I are being dismissed.

Example:
Tessa scans a new environment QUICKLY. She takes note of everything-immediately. I am telling you--she committs to memory every item she sees in a room, or at a park, I've watched her do this from the day I brought her home.

She sits or stands by me, & when Tessa feels everything is OK, with/for ME, then she will further explore, leaving my side to sniff or look.
Trainer interperates this as Tessa being distracted & not paying attention, because she is not sitting there focused & staring directly at ME.

***I think he is dead wrong***

Tessa assesses the perimeter around me 1st. I see it--and I'm the freakin dummy here on this forum, but I can see this much!!!
When she decides it's OK, then she will leave my side.

Once Tessa feels it's ok, only then she'll wander & further check out stuff.
And the perimeter gets wider as she assesses the security of it.
At no time is Tessa unaware of what I am doing even when she is not looking directly at me.
Trainer says this is not true--if her eyes are not on me, she is not focused on me.

I believe Tessa focuses 1st, makes a decision, then explores further, while maintaining focus on what I am doing even if she is not looking at me.
Each exploration gets a little further. I do not believe Tessa's exploration is her being distracted, I believe she is further assessing the environment-and I also believe the reason she is assessing the environment is specifically because she IS FOCUSED ON ME .

I believe this because I cannot sneak away from this pooch if I tried--whether her eyes are on me or not. I *Have* tested this.
She has peripheral vison, keen hearing & sense of smell--and she appears to use all of them & I can't sneak away even if she's sleeping anymore.

I get the distinct impression that the trainer thinks the above example is what I want to believe--versus what he is trying to tell me is happening. He even said almost as much.

Anyone's opinion???

In my 'last life' with a different breed of pooch, with people pleasers, I would have totally bought into:
"if the dogs eyes are not on you--they are not paying attention to you" train of thought.
Because I have even only known that type of pooch, & independent wasn't in any of my previous pooches genetics, if their eyes weren't on me they were not focused on me.

However, with Tessa, my gut is telling me this is not the case at all.

It is hard when a professional is telling you one thing, & your gut another.
Admittedly, I have no experience with independent breeds & how they work, and well,
***I***am having trouble deferring to the trainer's opinion--

My gut doesn't trust he fully "gets" what Tessa is doing.
I feel he is reading Tessa's focus as distraction.
I feel this is a huge mistake.

Also, he trains a lot of german short haired pointers & remarked about how independent of a breed they are.
I didn't know any different, so I did some reading, & unless I am mistaken, german short haired pointers are not an independent breed.
Yes, they are stubborn, but not independent, plenty of regular pooches are stubborn, doesn't mean they are independent is what I am saying.

For another example--when she is in the yard, I close the door & curtains on the sliding glass door because she will stay there watching everything inside if I do not.
She feels the vibration of my feet walking towards the door, or she smells me despite the closed door & knows when I am there. I have tried many ways to try to sneak to this closed door so I can observe her when she thinks I am not watching her--but within a few seconds-Bam! she knows I am there, even if she cannot see me.

I think despite how subtle Tessa's cues may be, even though I am not experienced with her type of breed, I think my gut is right about what she is doing--I don't think I am in denial or just wanting to think these are the things she is doing-It's what she's shown me from the beginning.

I think a distracted dog would run off exploring immediately without concern for me or my perimeter.

Also enter in the fact that trainer doesn't believe Tessa has any guardian type breed in her & because she is so low reactive, he doesn't think she'd take any aggressive action, especially how soft she is with me & in my presence.
He mentioned he thought she didn't have a guardian bone in her body...

So, there's my gut, & there's the trainer, a professional--and I'm wondering-
Is it me??? Or does he have this ALL wrong?

I think she secures my perimeter, he thinks she's distracted.
I think she's making decisions, he thinks she isn't thinking at all.
I think she's aware of my every move, & he seems to think that it's only my wishful thinking.
I also think he equates low reactivity to be non-guardian & therefore no issues.

I feel the issues I need addressed are not being taken seriously, & I went to a trainer to be proactive, & to not waste good time for additional training if Tessa is a guardian breed.

If Tessa ends up being some lab/hound mix, of course I suppose he'd be right & I will have egg all over my face.
But I don't even care about that--I care about being responsible.


But also in my gut, I don't think that's the case, because I've never seen a dog do what she does--& the only place I've read about the same things is here & on a few LGD sites.

Have you enlisted help from a trainer that has worked with Guardian breeds. If you say he has not worked with any dogs that guard than what makes him an expert on deciding if Tessa is guarding or not?

 

[ruthcatrin]

I don't know how to explain it to a trainer. I've never figured out how to explain Apollo's complete LACK of food drive to one, much less his thought process.

For getting her on her feet, what we did with Apollo, was straddle his back, slid my hands under his armpits and left his front end till his front feet were down, and he was in a sitting position, and then he'd usually respomd to leash or voice. Cause yah, if he was food driven he'd totally lay down till bribed.....

 

[Catia]

I asked him if he had experience with guardian & independent breeds.
He said he does.
Owns an anatolian he said & trains german short haired pointer from rescue dogs to service dogs.

I'm out of my element, I asked what I thought I should have, & he responded.

He works with difficult dogs with behavioral problems mostly.
He works with those who can't get their dogs to behave at home & they also go to his doggie daycare...
For what it's worth at this point--Tessa doesn't have any behavioral problems. She's teething & stubborn, but that's her, & seems normal for her. I was trying to be proactive.

*want to clarify* I don't think she is guarding me at this point--however I do believe she is assessing the perimeter around me, maybe that's splitting hairs, I don't know if one leads to the other.

I just know her attention span is vast-she assesses the whole damn park, no aggression, just assessment.

Sorry if i sound dumb about all of this, I don't know the language or terms to describe.

 

[kbuchanan66]

By guard I didn't mean aggressively. Parameter checks and attention to details is what I meant. The guardian breeds will do this. That is all I meant by a Trainer who would know what to look for.

 

[Catia]

One would think a trainer would know what to look for, & he did show me some very subtle stuff Tessa did...But now, I'm questioning some of it, because I do not feel he is taking ME ot Tessa seriously.

I went to him seeking advice & guidance because I want to do everything I can to learn about independent & guardian breeds, because I might well have one, & he just kinda laughed & told me not to worry about it after assessing her.

I'm paying him--I don't care if he believes her to be TM or not!
I do care that he's not taking me serious enough to give me any REAL guidance on what to look for.
He sent me home with a 14 day program called "Relaxation Protocol"--
*****I ALREADY HAVE THE MOST RELAXED FLOPPY NOODLEY NON REACTIVE MELLOW POOCH*****
LOL I need to teach her to get up--not lay down. ARGHHH!
And throwing treats on the ground ain't the way to do it!

This protocol is for dogs who can't settle down & sit, mine damn near takes a nap while I am going throught it, except she knows she gets lots of treats. The whole point of the exercise is for her to relax & stay sitting as long as possible...or she can lay down, which she often does...So yeah, I think he's not listening.


Tonight, 4th of July, we were out with all of the people, the fireworks started, & so did rain & thunder & lightening for 1/2 of it.--Tessa, well, she just hung out. Not a bark, wimper, snort, shake or anything. Thousands of people running for cover in droves, we just watched them & the fireworks in the rain, & she was fine.

Tessa's biggest reaction today was from a guitar!
--earlier in the day some college kids in a band were sitting in the grass & hanging out, same kids who play frisbee in the one park I go to.
She'd never seen a guitar & was leery of it when he 1st took it out & strummed it-Tessa was quite freaked by the sound at 1st--then intrigued by the whole sound & motion thing--she was trying to make the connection of his movements & the sound--she stayed back a little, just at 1st- He let her sniff the guitar some, then played some, she'd get closer & closer-then he sang & she really seemed to get it completely--Then he made up a little ditty just for her-using her name--because she kept eating the ice out of his cooler & licking his beer-and well, she's totally smitten Apparently Tessa quite enjoys being serenaded!

 

[kbuchanan66]

Man she is such a woman! Serenade her and she is yours lol

 

[alanysrayne]

I can somewhat understand what your feeling. When I got my EM I knew I was getting a laid back low energy dog, I just didn't expect that I would get that dog at 11 weeks. All he wanted to do was eat and sleep anything else seemed to be done because I wanted to do it and he just accepted that. That was his normal until he was 6 months old and then it was like a switch got flipped and all of a sudden he was the puppy that I expected from the beginning. It could be that her 'puppy ness' is just delayed.

Honestly I think with these giant breed dogs the reason they want to sleep all the time is because they are growing. And growing very fast may I add. Just like a new born baby. So if my EM puppy just wants to sleep I understand because growing that fast must be exhausting

 

[Catia]

This is very different than just a sleepy mellow pup.
I've had mellow pooches before. Pups need sleep so they can grow-no matter if a toy or a giant.

This is related to whatever breed(s) Tessa is-it's a temperament & instinct thing, not just a mellow pup thing.
If you've experienced mellow pups, this is on a whole 'nother intensity level.

Honestly, I'm with the others who explain if you've not experienced it, you're not really gonna understand it.
There's a seriousness & a very un-puppy like aspect that goes beyond a very mellow puppy.

Now, Tessa is 6 months. I think I am honestly starting to accept that this is a LGD type of temperament, & agree with Ruth, whether Tessa is TM or some other LGD type-because from what i've read here & on various LGD sites, it FITS her behavior.
It is the starangest type of thing--like she was born pre-trained for certain things, already knowing, and that's just not possible, so it must be instinctual & genetic.
Though I do have my doubts about how guardy she will become, she IS mixed breed, I'll keep socializing her, she loves that anyway.

Tessa has been doing some other neat/weird things lately.

She seems to like to be partially covered when napping-not a blanket, but meaning covered like under something but positioned in a way that she can see everything, but you can't see her LOL.
Lately it's been behind the curtains, which can be a pain when she rolls over, have had to reinforce the curtain brackets.
Or she stuffs herself under the sofa but she's too tight in there & gets too warm now.

Other thing is what she does with her bones & rawhide sticks--mostly with the rawhide sticks. At 1st she hid them LOL rearranged the sofa cushions to get a good hiding spot underneath & put the cushions back--no kidding--wasn't perfectly arranged-but pretty close for not having thumbs!!! But she wasn't really satisfied with that, I have danish sofas, so often the bone will drop to the floor thru the webbing, & this displeases her....
Now, she'll go through that whole deal, then she decides she doesn't want to put it there, so she is bringing them to me when she is done with them.
LOL I can be sleeping, she'll jump up on the bed, put it on the pillow or open spot closest to my head & jump down & go to sleep. So when I wake & make the bed, I try to put it in the exact spot, because she ALWAYS remembers where she put something.
Of course there are some holes dug in the yard...
Also, when she finds food (read:steals), if it's in a container, or baggie, she brings it to me-most times...
I did find a zip lock baggie full of treats that she hid in the corner next to her crate--saving it for later...

She is the worst counter surfer ever LOL but now bringing me her finds.

Tessa's worst theivery offense lately was she stole my 1/2 seafood calzone when I moved to answer the phone.
There she is with the whole thing in her mouth, not eating it. Just holding it looking at me.

I admit here, for all the world to see, YES!!!!---I took back my calzone & yes, I ate it...

It was a $15 pie & I waited all week for my Friday treat, wasn't damaged, & I am no worse for the wear.

 

[ruthcatrin]

This is very different than just a sleepy mellow pup.
I've had mellow pooches before. Pups need sleep so they can grow-no matter if a toy or a giant.

This is related to whatever breed(s) Tessa is-it's a temperament & instinct thing, not just a mellow pup thing.
If you've experienced mellow pups, this is on a whole 'nother intensity level.

Honestly, I'm with the others who explain if you've not experienced it, you're not really gonna understand it.
There's a seriousness & a very un-puppy like aspect that goes beyond a very mellow puppy.

Now, Tessa is 6 months. I think I am honestly starting to accept that this is a LGD type of temperament, & agree with Ruth, whether Tessa is TM or some other LGD type-because from what i've read here & on various LGD sites, it FITS her behavior.
It is the starangest type of thing--like she was born pre-trained for certain things, already knowing, and that's just not possible, so it must be instinctual & genetic.

You're probly never going to be REALLY able to explain it to someone who's never experienced it. Best you can often hope for is that they'll take your word for it....

.......
Lately it's been behind the curtains, which can be a pain when she rolls over, have had to reinforce the curtain brackets.
Or she stuffs herself under the sofa but she's too tight in there & gets too warm now.

.....At 1st she hid them LOL rearranged the sofa cushions to get a good hiding spot underneath & put the cushions back--no kidding--wasn't perfectly arranged-but pretty close for not having thumbs!!! But she wasn't really satisfied with that, I have danish sofas, so often the bone will drop to the floor thru the webbing, & this displeases her....
........
Also, when she finds food (read:steals), if it's in a container, or baggie, she brings it to me-most times...
I did find a zip lock baggie full of treats that she hid in the corner next to her crate--saving it for later...

........
Tessa's worst theivery offense lately was she stole my 1/2 seafood calzone when I moved to answer the phone.
There she is with the whole thing in her mouth, not eating it. Just holding it looking at me.

I admit here, for all the world to see, YES!!!!---I took back my calzone & yes, I ate it...

It was a $15 pie & I waited all week for my Friday treat, wasn't damaged, & I am no worse for the wear.

:lolbangtable:

 

[Catia]

I think this past week, with the whole whacked out DNA test, I'm thinking--if it looks like a duck/acts like a duck & quacks like a duck, it's a duck LOL.

gotta say, you forewarned me more than once that if she's some oddball LGD mix her DNA would come back whacky.

I think you & hubby's thoughts on the whole trap issue is probably the most realistic explanation.
I hadn't thought about hunters finding her & the whole scenario.

I started doing some digging myself past few days since you mentioned it, & Halifax county virginia has a BAD coyote problem. They also trap a LOT there due to the issues.
I wish I would've looked this stuff up before because I just missed a free LGD seminar that was given there at their fair, & I could've made a weekend out of it.
There's plenty of great pyrs but also a bunch of maremmas & karakachans & people who are breeding LGD's for working dogs breed a bit differently than the show dog world.

From what I've read, many don't want show dogs in the sense that it breeds out behaviors they really need to protect their livestock, they're breeding for behaviors not sticking to standards for show is what i'm getting at.

Also they're not fixing their dogs & their dogs mix with the other LGDs & whatever other breed comes around.

Some have multiple LGD breeds & mix their best or allow them to breed, or accidentally breed, & keep the pups or give or sell cheaply to other farmers. Some are mixing newfs with karakachans & gr pyrs & maremmas, akbash etc. No one is freaking out cuz these pooches aren't making it to cities as sought after pooches for pets or show, they'r bred to work down on the farm, & they've got their own way of doing things.

Being a city gal, of course I've never heard of some (most) of these breeds.
This area has no shortage of several LGD breeds, & mixed breed LGDs & hunting dogs, & most are what would be considered mutts in the pedigreed pet world, but to the people who have them, they're the best working dogs, because they have multiple generations raised & proven with their livestock, which is exactly what they want.

I'm also getting much more comfortable with understanding the independent breed type of temperament.
Yes, it's a total shock if you're used to shepherds/rotties/danes or basic regular pooches people have for pets.
A serious pup isn't something most people expect.

I do sometimes feel really bummed I didn't get that goofy playful puppy experience, because she is just the cutest thing...
but I am seeing how well it works for other things--

and also--there ARE many things I am not dealing with--
#1 on this list is *seperation anxiety*
LOL dealing with seperation anxiety has become expected by me, due to the breeds I've always had, it usually goes hand in hand with velcro.
Tessa has her velcro-esque moments, she'll creep up behind me if I am standing stationary, & not facing out-- like washing dishes, or cooking. She will lay behind my feet facing out-& that's the extent of it. She's not leaning or begging.
It's not really velcro, it's as close to velcro as tessa gets though---it's not to be up against me, it's some odd instinctual thing to watch the perimeter around me-like she's watching my back if I am not facing out.

Also, it is nice that Tessa doesn't have any herding behaviors. I do not have to train her to control herself around large groups, kids can scatter at will & play ball, be it baseball, basketball or football--even frisbee--and she's not running the perimeter worrying that someone might get away. I swear she observes the patterns of the behavior of the games & KNOWS to look for the patterns. If something with her expectations of the pattern changes, she is more alert.

Tessa also will not waste one iota of energy doing something she figures is pointless. I think this is what frustrates me, I'm used to compliant obedient pooches-dogs that will do without questioning.
Yes, it's a stubborn thing, but fact of the matter is, 1/2 of the time I know too I am asking her to do things that are pointless in the here & now. This is where I struggle. I'm used to the immediate response.
In training, & she is in training, I expect her to listen. I know she knows the commands.
When she is home--she says-'skrew the commands, i'm relaxing', when I'm out, she's alert, so she listens.

Don't quite know where the happy medium is at home with an independent breed.

I have the feeling her stubbornness is going to wear me down, & I'll end up the one who is complaint...And I'm starting to get it's not an 'alpha dominance thing' or even necessarily a disobedience thing when she doesn't respond--it's the fact that really, there's no REAL reason to respond. At home, it's about food & relaxing & basics.

When I break it down, Tessa is housebroken, crate trained & even though she's still teething, she's pretty well behaved, she just doesn't like to perform in the house LOL.

***I have NOT let her know I am thinking this, I FEAR it will be the end of me.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yah, the LGD world is much less hung up on the BREED of the dog. Some breeders maintain breed lines, some don't. But What they really care about is working ability, the ability to guard and do the job. And yah, the pups almost never end up in the city shelters cause theres ALWAYS a need for good working dogs from proven lines. And yah, alot of them are kept intact. Infact my original assumption (other than half TM), was that rottie mom got a visit from an intact male LGD from the next place over resulting in Tessa's litter, which in turn had me a bit concerned about where the rest of the litter went. On the other hand if a farm pup wandered off and ended up in a trap......and maybe got mixed in with a rottie cross litter at the shelter.....yah, I'd say thats possible too. In general by the time the pups are 8 weeks or so they're spending portions of their day with the flock/herd with the adult dogs, so although I'd wonder why an adult wasn't keeping a closer eye on the pup I could see it.

Training....its the world of comprimise with these dogs. Cause yes, if they don't see the point they're very likely not to bother. So, do you continue to train? Yup. Do so by trying to find ways to make her see a reason why she needs to. But you also understand that, well, is it really important that she learn to do X? If not, then well, its not the end of the world when she gets stubborn about it.

 

[Catia]

The other thing also is that I realize these LGD pooches are not unnecessarily aggressive. Their temperament with people is for the most part gentle--even the ones living outside with the flocks or herds, who are not meant to be pets.

I'm actually finding their abilities to discern threats quite fascinating, the things these pooches were bred to do just never occurred to me, having never lived in that environment. I never thought of a pooch bonding with goats or sheep. I mean I know herding breeds herd, but i never knew of the other pooches & their jobs.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Alot of people don't. Closest most folks ever get is the Great Pyr, and even then they don't understand them.

And yes, only aggressive to percieved threat. The trick is that the dog decides threat or no threat, not the human.

 

[2nd Chance]

If you truly feel this type of dog is a poor match for your needs. Give her up.
If you keep the dog, simply to avoid the pain of losing it to a more experienced home, assuming you can find one, that's not the right thing to do.

 

[Catia]

LOL 2nd chance, I think we're well beyond considering me giving up Tessa.

Her temperament was something I needed to adjust to & came as a total shock because I expected a puppy with puppy like behaviors.
As she gets older, now 6 months, I'm experiencing the benefits of her temperament & I am going to continue to socialize her & do public stuff often like I have been, & if she begins to get guardy, I'll deal with that when it happens.

At this point, Tessa has *proven* so even in her behavior, & temperament, since she was 11 wks old, it's been CONSISTANT--Now I think I might be actually be getting spoiled...

Part of me was worried it might all just be a fluke, or that she was ill.
I've never experience a dog this even from such a young age.

Yes, she is stubborn, but that's a completely different issue. Her temperament is such that despite her stubbornness, she is still well behaved.
It is frustrating if you're used to say shepherds/danes/rotties & their type of response.
That is where my experience was, & those breeds I see now are a cake walk in comparison.

Things are just going to take more time as far as training. Yes, it's frustrating & not what I planned for.
Right now, instead of pushing training in other directions, I'm just focused on reinforcing the basics, mainly socilaization, which I've always done 10x more than most people to begin with, for the fun of it, but now it's my job to do more.

Now if I can just get through the teething & her constant need to counter surf-she's such a little theif!!!
-and lately, for some odd reason-jumping up has become an issue-out of nowhere, & she's even doing it sometimes when we are out.
For the most part, on the teething, because I give her enough wood, she's leaving my furniture alone, though my teak sofa has some teeth marks, it's very minimal.

My last girl seemed to teeth for the better part of her 1st 2 years, so I was prepared for teething.
What I was not prepared for was a pooch who has little interest in toys to chew on or destroy.
Tessa gets bored even with bones, & when she gets bored, it gets dangerous, I have to keep my eyes on her, every room has baby gates. Electrical cords have become the issue again. Specifically black thick electrical cords & cable wire/cords. There is something in the way it smells that attracts her. Certain plastics have a hormone smell that attracts animals.
I can hide/move/rearrange, but somethings must be plugged in in certain places.
She got to the fan chord Tuesday, it was plugged in & running since it was almost 100 degrees--
in a split second, we were in the same room, she chomped it & ripped it from the wall.
I do not know if she got zapped, she did not make any noise.
But it was bitten, completely in 1/2 leaving the plug in the outlet.

Maybe it sounds wrong, but now that the situation is over, I'm thinking if she did get a good zap-maybe that's a good thing & will deter her. In the mean time, I need to figure out how to deal with it.

 

[Smokeycat]

She got to the fan chord Tuesday, it was plugged in & running since it was almost 100 degrees--
in a split second, we were in the same room, she chomped it & ripped it from the wall.
I do not know if she got zapped, she did not make any noise.
But it was bitten, completely in 1/2 leaving the plug in the outlet.

Maybe it sounds wrong, but now that the situation is over, I'm thinking if she did get a good zap-maybe that's a good thing & will deter her. In the mean time, I need to figure out how to deal with it.

Kryten did chew on a lamp cord when he was 3-4 months old. We think it was an accident because there was a toy laying on top of the cord that had singe marks on it. He was over a year old before he tried to go behind the couch again.

 

[ELB81]

Jumping up and climbing on things is normal for TM pups, my boy used to jump up on the kitchen table and just sit there watching for us to walk through the door.

Not a very good photo, lol can't believe how much he has changed since January.



He seems to have grown out of it (fingers crossed)

 

[ruthcatrin]

Jumping up and climbing on things is normal for TM pups, my boy used to jump up on the kitchen table and just sit there watching for us to walk through the door.

Not a very good photo, lol can't believe how much he has changed since January.
View attachment 28343


He seems to have grown out of it (fingers crossed)

We have so far kept Apollo of the kitchen table, but he firmly believes that my coffee table and end tables are his beds......



There was a picture going around Facebook a couple years ago, of this big carved heavy dining table....with this lovely black and tan TM sitting on top lol