I'm going to get a professional behaviorist.

[broccolini]

Should be interesting.

We've tried different trainers but they are all into the food reward system. Works great in the house. Useless outside.

I want to work on Athena's dog aggression but I'm not having much luck figuring out how to get her to stop reacting to dogs. We still socialize her a lot within her safe-zones but I think she can do better. And I'm not sure it's even dog aggression as much as a lack of social skills. We'll see.

I'm really interested to see what kind of ideas a behaviorist will have.

 

[musicdeb]

Keep us posted on her progress. Sometimes dogs will not tolerate other dogs and it's a way of life for me. I'm aware Titan doesn't like male dogs and I keep him away from them. Small dogs, he will lay down and watch them walk by us. He does very well with a female EM on play dates.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Have fun! ok, sarcasm, I'm interested in what the behaviorist says too, I just think you're going to have "fun" trying to find one who's got primitive experience!

 

[broccolini]

Keep us posted on her progress. Sometimes dogs will not tolerate other dogs and it's a way of life for me. I'm aware Titan doesn't like male dogs and I keep him away from them. Small dogs, he will lay down and watch them walk by us. He does very well with a female EM on play dates.

I would be okay with just keeping her away from all dogs if that's the problem. The thing is, she's done this since she was a puppy. With all dogs. Even the ones she loves now. It's like she has to challenge all of them. So if there's something I can do about that, I want to know.

If not, that's fine too. It will be cool to get an expert opinion though.

 

[broccolini]

Have fun! ok, sarcasm, I'm interested in what the behaviorist says too, I just think you're going to have "fun" trying to find one who's got primitive experience!

Well, for training, I think that's a problem. But behavior clues should be the same no matter the breed, right? Like body language and what not. I just want to know why she hates the other dogs for the first five minutes. Is she scared? Just dominant? A cranky bitch?

I want answers!

Seriously, I just want to make sure I've done everything I can before just writing her off as dog aggressive.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Yes and no? At least see if you can find one with chow experience. These guys can be harder to read, even for people with a clue!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Oh, I think you're doing yhe right thing, don't get me wrong!

 

[broccolini]

Yes and no? At least see if you can find one with chow experience. These guys can be harder to read, even for people with a clue!

Ah, okay. I see what you're getting at. Same clues, more subtlety.

 

[mountainfila]

Well, for training, I think that's a problem. But behavior clues should be the same no matter the breed, right? Like body language and what not. I just want to know why she hates the other dogs for the first five minutes. Is she scared? Just dominant? A cranky bitch?

I want answers!

Seriously, I just want to make sure I've done everything I can before just writing her off as dog aggressive.

How are you reacting to this situation? You say she acts this way for the first 5 mins, what does she do afterwards? How is your body language to her when you see a dog walking in your direction? If she is fine after meeting the dog and relaxes after, im thinking you may be causing some of it and not even realizing it. By that i mean when you first leave the house you may be anticipating running into another dog and become tense and then when you see a dog in the distance you tighten up on the lead and become more tense which the dog can sense and im thinking when you realize there is no problem you relax which makes her relax. Were you the one that just posted recently about her pulling on walks? Does she pull you towards the dogs she is meeting?

 

[Hector]

Have you tried leash corrections? If you can keep her in a focused heel then she is less likely to react, but you still have to watch her head language and where she is looking at. Have you tried a walking session where you are very very strict with her position? You do not allow her to inch forward and you don't allow her to sniff and you don't allow her to lag and you do not allow her to look anywhere but you or forward?

 

[broccolini]

How are you reacting to this situation? You say she acts this way for the first 5 mins, what does she do afterwards? How is your body language to her when you see a dog walking in your direction? If she is fine after meeting the dog and relaxes after, im thinking you may be causing some of it and not even realizing it. By that i mean when you first leave the house you may be anticipating running into another dog and become tense and then when you see a dog in the distance you tighten up on the lead and become more tense which the dog can sense and im thinking when you realize there is no problem you relax which makes her relax. Were you the one that just posted recently about her pulling on walks? Does she pull you towards the dogs she is meeting?

I am fully aware I might be part of the problem at this point, but only because she has proven that she will not react well to other dogs. This has been going on since she was a puppy. At that point I had no reason to think she wouldn't like other dogs. She lived with a bunch of other dogs and was fine.

I do try really hard to not react to other dogs myself and to just keep her moving when other dogs are around. I don't tighten up her leash and I'm not really tense when other dogs are around. I mean, I have her on a leash and she can't actually get to them so I'm not worried she's going to eat one of them. Last week an unleashed Newfie ran up to us while we were walking. I could tell he was super-friendly and probably wasn't going to pick a fight with Athena or anything. Her leash was loose and we just stood still. After about two seconds, she growled and lunged at him and he ran off.

We have had more success with a long line on her when she is around off-leash dogs. She will threaten them but they can move away fast enough to stay safe.

So, I guess I just don't know how to work on this. Like, I know she doesn't react well to new dogs. So how do I teach her to be non-reactive without her being reactive? Does that make sense. Everything I read says to find their safe distance and work from there. That's fine. We can be across the street. We can follow dogs. She doesn't care so much about that. If a dog is walking toward her, we will have a problem. And I can't do treats for counter-conditioning because she won't take them.

So, yeah. I fully expect her to act aggressively toward new dogs because she always has. It's like I need practice dogs to work with. Most people here just look at her like she's some sort of demon-spawn and like we are horrible dog owners. But we've socialized the crap out of her since we brought her home. She has like 4 dog friends that she loves.
She wanted to kill the puppy when we brought him home. Since he was ours too, we just let her work it out. She barked and growled for like a minute and then she was fine.

I'm hoping a behaviorist will also be able to point out anything I'm doing to make the situation worse too. It's just hard for me to figure out her triggers, and my reactions while trying to make sure she doesn't attack the other dogs.

 

[broccolini]

Have you tried leash corrections? If you can keep her in a focused heel then she is less likely to react, but you still have to watch her head language and where she is looking at. Have you tried a walking session where you are very very strict with her position? You do not allow her to inch forward and you don't allow her to sniff and you don't allow her to lag and you do not allow her to look anywhere but you or forward?

Yes. That works fine. If I keep her close and moving and her collar up high, she'll just come along. Reluctantly.
If we are behind a dog, her attitude seems to be more like she wants to play with the other dog. When they approach from the front, I think she wants to kill them.

I have a prong collar. That works well for pulling but it makes her act worse around other dogs.

Sometimes we take her to outdoor restaurants. She will lay quietly under the table but I have to constantly look around for other people who might walk by with a dog because she will lunge at them. So the strict walking thing doesn't help with that.

 

[Siloh]

Because she reacts this way with dogs walking by a restaurant, I don't know if this will help at all, BUT here it goes

Have you tried walking in a curving pattern when approaching another dog? I only recently read somewhere to do this and it has been working really well, not just on Hamlet but with the dog we are approaching (it also works well when approaching a throng of people). It is apparently a softer, more polite, less confrontational way of approaching for a dog rather than in a straight line (as in a sidewalk or charging dog), since it signals a non-confrontational greeting where the curving dog is potentiating sniffing of the rear by curving. It makes sense to me in that I've seen well-mannered dogs do this at dog parks, rather than the pushy ones who charge up and get in the unfamiliar dog's face.

That said I don't know TMs at all.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Hector]

Yes. That works fine. If I keep her close and moving and her collar up high, she'll just come along. Reluctantly.
If we are behind a dog, her attitude seems to be more like she wants to play with the other dog. When they approach from the front, I think she wants to kill them.

I have a prong collar. That works well for pulling but it makes her act worse around other dogs.

Sometimes we take her to outdoor restaurants. She will lay quietly under the table but I have to constantly look around for other people who might walk by with a dog because she will lunge at them. So the strict walking thing doesn't help with that.

In that case I wouldn't have a dog like yours while eating outdoors because you do have to constantly be on the lookout unless you are in some corner. If it were me, I practice and have her in a place or down stay command and watch her. If she tries to move because she sees another dog, then she will be given a hard enough correction not because she saw another dog, but because she broke her down-stay. The correction has to be timely and swift, not a holding the leash or collar back. Just correct and release. OR you go back to working very hard with down-stays and distractions and use corrections. I haven't had either of my dogs react (both have issues and one is bad on leash and this is walking both at the same time) to whatever they are reactive to if I remain strict right off the bat and make it clear it's all business. Well and I've never dealt with a TM so yeah.

Please share the strategies and results from your session.

 

[musicdeb]

I'm curious, as well, as what the behaviorist says about the behavior. Keep us posted.

 

[broccolini]

This is the email I got from one of the people I contacted:


The ancient breeds are often more challenging for the reasons that you listed--a more aloof temperament and more difficult to read body language. Some might argue that more recent breeds have been selected for their expressiveness and food motivation, among other things.

I have had a number of clients with large ancient breeds, but only one other Tibetan Mastiff. The others have included the more common breeds (such as huskies, malamutes, basenjis, and chows). Certainly you will want to find the best person for your dog. The techniques that I use emphasize reading body language, preventing unwanted responses, shaping and rewarding desired and relaxed responses (with effective rewards for the individual, not necessarily food), and establishing a foundation of calm, deferential behavior.

Your dog's breeder may have some insights for you about Athena's behavior. I have found that breeders of uncommon or special breeds often have a wealth of knowledge about breed specific behavior and training techniques.

I hope that my response addresses your concerns, at least in part. Please feel free to call or email if you have additional questions.

Best,
Robin

Does it sound like he might be useful?

 

[ruthcatrin]

I like his first email anyway. I'd say that following up and maybe even a first visit to see how he does wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[broccolini]

I like his first email anyway. I'd say that following up and maybe even a first visit to see how he does wouldn't be a bad idea.

They work on a 2 hour consultation/ 1 hour follow-up appointment with 6 months of email/phone support. All for a million dollars.

So you don't really get to 'try them out'. Sadly.

 

[broccolini]

Oh, here is her information.

 

[Iymala]

I really liked her response email. I am really interested on how this goes and your experience with a behavorist. I have always wondered exactly how they work with the owners and the dogs in comparison to a trainer.