I'm going to get a professional behaviorist.

[broccolini]

I really liked her response email. I am really interested on how this goes and your experience with a behavorist. I have always wondered exactly how they work with the owners and the dogs in comparison to a trainer.

Yes, me too.
We've worked with trainers and she went to puppy class. She's very good at fooling the trainers into thinking she will act like a normal dog. She was the star of her puppy class. Even with the other dogs around. She would just lay on the floor and look at me when we weren't doing exercises.

One trainer was used to working with Malinois. I liked him, but none of his methods were ever going to work outside of our yard. The other trainer was a big fan of choke collars. Athena was not.

Also, I'm not really worried about regular training stuff. Athena is a good dog. She has good house manners and for a Tibetan, she acts great around people. We have zero recall. She barks like a maniac. These are things we expect her to do so it's okay.

I only want help getting her to act reasonable around other dogs. And even with that, she's not the worst dog ever. We just live in an area where there are going to be a lot of dogs on the same sidewalk. I'd like her to be able to handle that. She has about a 20ft bubble for dogs walking toward her. We need something smaller.

And if this is mostly my fault, I want to know that too.

 

[ruthcatrin]

They work on a 2 hour consultation/ 1 hour follow-up appointment with 6 months of email/phone support. All for a million dollars.

So you don't really get to 'try them out'. Sadly.

Not cheap, on the other hand she sounds like she's got a clue as to how these guys work........

 

[broccolini]

Not cheap, on the other hand she sounds like she's got a clue as to how these guys work........

Yes, I think so too.

This is her follow-up email:

Interesting information about Athena. Some of the anecdotes about single puppy litters are probably true, although they have not been scientifically documented in studies of canine temperament. It's likely that a number of factors have contributed to her behavior, and being a single puppy may be one of them.

We should be able to figure out if she is guarding you or generally reactive to other dogs. A "strong" dislike of unfamiliar dogs is fairly common problem in many breeds. I don't use chock collars--or any other aversive training devices--although with large dogs I often will use restraining equipment to insure control of the dog. Every time Athena "practices" the aggressive reactivity it strengthens the behavior pattern, so we need to be able to prevent that behavior. What I use depends on the dog--some combination of wide collar, head halter, harness. (It is interesting that my work with horses transfers more than I would have though to working with large dogs.)

It sounds like you have tried a few trainers. As you know Tibetan Mastiffs aren't Mastiffs at all (they are just large!) Problems like Athena's can be persistent and life-long issues, so figuring out how behavior management and modification can work together to create the best outcome for Athena and your lifestyle is very important.

I do not use a helper dog on my in home consultations because I prefer to help my clients learn to deal with the real-life situations that they will encounter. Helper dogs can be very useful in extreme cases because it allows for maximum control of the situation. If it seems appropriate, then I set it up for a follow-up appointment often including a second trainer or behaviorist to handle the helper dog.

Best regards,
Robin

 

[DennasMom]

Broccolini - I see you're in Seattle... if you need a "stranger" dog for a training challenge... I'll offer up Denna.

She still wants to play with EVERY dog we meet, but does (normally) listen when I tell her to 'leave it' and just walk by. So... I think she'd be a good non-aggressive and mostly non-reactive "helper" dog, if you want to meet up somewhere sometime. I'm over in N. Kirkland (Totem Lake area).

I'm not familiar with Robin - but I see she does consults here at the Kirkland off-leash park... maybe next time she does one of her Saturday "meet the trainer" sessions, I'll go stop by. We normally avoid the park on the weekends, just to avoid crowds of idiots.

 

[mountainfila]

Yes, me too.
We've worked with trainers and she went to puppy class. She's very good at fooling the trainers into thinking she will act like a normal dog. She was the star of her puppy class. Even with the other dogs around. She would just lay on the floor and look at me when we weren't doing exercises.

One trainer was used to working with Malinois. I liked him, but none of his methods were ever going to work outside of our yard. The other trainer was a big fan of choke collars. Athena was not.

Also, I'm not really worried about regular training stuff. Athena is a good dog. She has good house manners and for a Tibetan, she acts great around people. We have zero recall. She barks like a maniac. These are things we expect her to do so it's okay.

I only want help getting her to act reasonable around other dogs. And even with that, she's not the worst dog ever. We just live in an area where there are going to be a lot of dogs on the same sidewalk. I'd like her to be able to handle that. She has about a 20ft bubble for dogs walking toward her. We need something smaller.

And if this is mostly my fault, I want to know that too.

What do you mean by your not really worried about regular training stuff? If your meaning just basic commands thats the foundation to a strong bond with your dog and getting your dog to trust you as a leader and listen to you. When you said in your other post about the newfie coming towards you , you said you just stood still and did nothing and then she lunged at him, she is taking charge of the situation because you are not. I think if you go back to the basics and take a more proactive approach to the sit, down and stay, i think she and yourself will be more relaxed on your walks just by you knowing she WILL listen to you when passing a strange dog. It may take longer with a TM but they are still a dog. And on your walks implement these commands, she doesnt need to meet every dog that approaches but she should listen to you. When out at the cafe with her practice the stay, dont eat just have a drink so you can take control of situations before they arise, eventually she is going to take the hint that you are in charge but be persistant, train train train just the basics sit down stay. I have faith in you , the more you put in the more you will get out. And i also think Hector is close to you.

 

[Ronin]

What do you mean by your not really worried about regular training stuff? If your meaning just basic commands thats the foundation to a strong bond with your dog and getting your dog to trust you as a leader and listen to you. When you said in your other post about the newfie coming towards you , you said you just stood still and did nothing and then she lunged at him, she is taking charge of the situation because you are not. I think if you go back to the basics and take a more proactive approach to the sit, down and stay, i think she and yourself will be more relaxed on your walks just by you knowing she WILL listen to you when passing a strange dog. It may take longer with a TM but they are still a dog. And on your walks implement these commands, she doesnt need to meet every dog that approaches but she should listen to you. When out at the cafe with her practice the stay, dont eat just have a drink so you can take control of situations before they arise, eventually she is going to take the hint that you are in charge but be persistant, train train train just the basics sit down stay. I have faith in you , the more you put in the more you will get out. And i also think Hector is close to you.

I second this post...also, I really believe a group obedience novice class would be far better than a one-on-one trainer in this situation. You want those distractions around. If your dog will behave the way you want in those situations, your dog will behave on a walk around the neighborhood. Just gotta be consistent...I can't stress that enough.

 

[broccolini]

What do you mean by your not really worried about regular training stuff? If your meaning just basic commands thats the foundation to a strong bond with your dog and getting your dog to trust you as a leader and listen to you. When you said in your other post about the newfie coming towards you , you said you just stood still and did nothing and then she lunged at him, she is taking charge of the situation because you are not. I think if you go back to the basics and take a more proactive approach to the sit, down and stay, i think she and yourself will be more relaxed on your walks just by you knowing she WILL listen to you when passing a strange dog. It may take longer with a TM but they are still a dog. And on your walks implement these commands, she doesnt need to meet every dog that approaches but she should listen to you. When out at the cafe with her practice the stay, dont eat just have a drink so you can take control of situations before they arise, eventually she is going to take the hint that you are in charge but be persistant, train train train just the basics sit down stay. I have faith in you , the more you put in the more you will get out. And i also think Hector is close to you.

I meant that we don't have any problems with her normal training or behavior other than her reactions to new dogs. And I know that it seems like she should just have faith in me and listen to me but that really is not how her brain works. Like the best I can hope for is that she will value my opinion. But she's still going to make her own decisions. This isn't a training issue. It's just the breed. Like the ojerza(sp?) in yours.

Don't get me wrong, I still work with her like I expect her to listen, but I understand that no matter how much training time I put in, I'm never going to have a dog that follows my commands without question. Eliminating her reaction will be more effective than counting on her to restrain herself on my command.

So what should I have done about the Newfie? He was friendly and wasn't running at us so is it normal for her to react like he was a threat? Should I have put myself between them? How do you teach a dog to meet other dogs without letting them meet other dogs?

I get that I can just keep her away from other dogs. That's not really that difficult. It would just be nice if we could pass dogs on the sidewalk without her reacting to them. Or have people come and talk to us with their dogs.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm just looking for some easy answer instead of putting in the time. That's really not the case. I just think at this point I want more specific guidance and methods that don't rely on food, praise or overly harsh corrections.

We've tried finding her safe distance and watching dogs but she won't take treats so there is no way to reward her for not reacting. She does well if I keep her close and moving and the other dogs aren't too close. She's played well with other dogs once she decided she liked them. She did great in her puppy classes with other dogs.

Maybe it's a leash issue? Maybe it's just me? I'm not sure. It will just be nice to have someone point out where things are going wrong.

 

[broccolini]

I second this post...also, I really believe a group obedience novice class would be far better than a one-on-one trainer in this situation. You want those distractions around. If your dog will behave the way you want in those situations, your dog will behave on a walk around the neighborhood. Just gotta be consistent...I can't stress that enough.

She's been to puppy class and acted fine. We also took her to a handling class with lots of other dogs. She was fine with that too. It's like in a group of dogs, she doesn't have any issues. And once she's done posturing as long as the other dog is submissive, she's okay with them one on one too.

I will work on my consistency too. I'll make sure I walk her with a more strict attitude and not give her the time to worry about anybody else. That seems to work for her. I just don't know if that will make her less reactive in a more casual situation.

 

[Ronin]

She's been to puppy class and acted fine. We also took her to a handling class with lots of other dogs. She was fine with that too. It's like in a group of dogs, she doesn't have any issues. And once she's done posturing as long as the other dog is submissive, she's okay with them one on one too.

I will work on my consistency too. I'll make sure I walk her with a more strict attitude and not give her the time to worry about anybody else. That seems to work for her. I just don't know if that will make her less reactive in a more casual situation.

It almost sounds like YOUR dog is not the problem. I myself cannot stand when I'm walking my dogs and other dog owners let their dogs run at mine without any kind of permission or even a hint that it's ok. I've gone of on guys for that before. Even if the dog is friendly, my dogs don't know that AND neither do I. It is bad form and I think ANY dog would react the way yours does...it's doing it's job by protecting you and herself. Sounds like you're doing just fine. Just make sure you let the other owners know that you don't want their dog approaching yours like that. Like I've said in another post, that is one of my biggest pet peeves!

 

[ruthcatrin]

MountainFila, I'm going to turn this around cause I want your input:

If you're out with one or more of your pack, and you see a guy approaching, and you can tell he's not going to give your dogs a wide berth, how do you handle your dogs? What do you do?

I know the situation isn't truely identical, Fila's are SUPPOSED to not like strangers while TMs aren't supposed to be dog aggressive like this (though some are) unless the dog is a threat......I am kinda wondering if unknown dogs are pegging her threat meter to some degree. Maybe because she was an only pup litter, or maybe because thats just how her brain works. But when you add that into a TMs natural "gonna do what I want regardless" thought process....

 

[broccolini]

It almost sounds like YOUR dog is not the problem. I myself cannot stand when I'm walking my dogs and other dog owners let their dogs run at mine without any kind of permission or even a hint that it's ok.

No, she's definitely part of the problem.

The dogs don't have to be running up to her. Just moving in her general direction is enough. Although we do have the occasional flexi-leash dog with bad manners.

If she thinks she's protecting me, I need to know what I'm doing to make her think she needs to. I don't feel like I'm in any danger and she's not big enough for me to have to worry about her overpowering me. So while I do try and keep watch for anything she might react to, it's not like I'm fretting about it.

At most, it's a little embarrassing.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Broc, have you ever introduced her to another adult TM?

 

[Ronin]

No, she's definitely part of the problem.

The dogs don't have to be running up to her. Just moving in her general direction is enough. Although we do have the occasional flexi-leash dog with bad manners.

If she thinks she's protecting me, I need to know what I'm doing to make her think she needs to. I don't feel like I'm in any danger and she's not big enough for me to have to worry about her overpowering me. So while I do try and keep watch for anything she might react to, it's not like I'm fretting about it.

At most, it's a little embarrassing.

I don't mean any offense by what I'm about to say, so please don't take it the wrong way, and I may be way off anyway, but just a thought. Maybe you simply aren't exuding the kind of confidence required for a breed of this stature and she feels the need to step up when approached by other dogs? Most times the simplest explanation is the correct one...

 

[mountainfila]

MountainFila, I'm going to turn this around cause I want your input:

If you're out with one or more of your pack, and you see a guy approaching, and you can tell he's not going to give your dogs a wide berth, how do you handle your dogs? What do you do?

I know the situation isn't truely identical, Fila's are SUPPOSED to not like strangers while TMs aren't supposed to be dog aggressive like this (though some are) unless the dog is a threat......I am kinda wondering if unknown dogs are pegging her threat meter to some degree. Maybe because she was an only pup litter, or maybe because thats just how her brain works. But when you add that into a TMs natural "gonna do what I want regardless" thought process....

This has happened to me a few times, i am always watching everywhere for everything lol, so yes this person coming towards us, usually starts by the dog(s) alert by growling, i then look at my options and take the dog off to the farthest i can and i say the sit, the dogs sit and i say stay, i get eye contact from them as well as the person, the closer the person gets the more eye contact they give the person, i also position myself in front of them and re-inforcing my stay command with corrections by tug up on the leash as their heads tend to go down to scent as the person goes by, this brings the attention back to me and reinforce the stay. They do not like it but they listen to their commands. If the person tends to stop , my dogs break the sit and stand and growl but they do not lunge as the person normaly stops when the growling starts, i tell them NO and to sit, they sit, i nod my head and smile and start to walk again with a heel command and away we go. I dont put myself in a position where i am trapped for space, i always have an out but when i dont i expect my dogs to follow my commands.

And when i do run into loose dogs, i tell my dogs to stay cause they are reactive to strange dogs and i put myself in between and loudly say Hey, GET!!!! Stomp my foot and im re-enforcing the stay with my dogs as they get ancy cause of the excitement the loose dog brings with it. There are a few that let their 15lb shit disturbers run loose to chase after people that walk by cause their little foo foo wont hurt a fly so they dont need to be restrained, ya right lol

 

[Ronin]

This has happened to me a few times, i am always watching everywhere for everything lol, so yes this person coming towards us, usually starts by the dog(s) alert by growling, i then look at my options and take the dog off to the farthest i can and i say the sit, the dogs sit and i say stay, i get eye contact from them as well as the person, the closer the person gets the more eye contact they give the person, i also position myself in front of them and re-inforcing my stay command with corrections by tug up on the leash as their heads tend to go down to scent as the person goes by, this brings the attention back to me and reinforce the stay. They do not like it but they listen to their commands. If the person tends to stop , my dogs break the sit and stand and growl but they do not lunge as the person normaly stops when the growling starts, i tell them NO and to sit, they sit, i nod my head and smile and start to walk again with a heel command and away we go. I dont put myself in a position where i am trapped for space, i always have an out but when i dont i expect my dogs to follow my commands.

And when i do run into loose dogs, i tell my dogs to stay cause they are reactive to strange dogs and i put myself in between and loudly say Hey, GET!!!! Stomp my foot and im re-enforcing the stay with my dogs as they get ancy cause of the excitement the loose dog brings with it. There are a few that let their 15lb shit disturbers run loose to chase after people that walk by cause their little foo foo wont hurt a fly so they dont need to be restrained, ya right lol

There's a similar drill we did at OTCH...the figure 8 drill. We would get two handlers and there dog facing each other about 6 feet away with the dog sitting in heel position. Those two are the posts...a third handler and dog would walk there dog in heel position in a figure 8 around both posts occasionally halting with one dog right next to or facing one of the post dogs. If any dog breaks, you would need to correct accordingly and get that dog back into whatever position they were in. If they don't break, you need to praise accordingly. After a few laps, switch and have one of the post stake over heeling and the previous healer takes over the post...wash, rinse, repeat...

 

[mountainfila]

No, she's definitely part of the problem.

The dogs don't have to be running up to her. Just moving in her general direction is enough. Although we do have the occasional flexi-leash dog with bad manners.

If she thinks she's protecting me, I need to know what I'm doing to make her think she needs to. I don't feel like I'm in any danger and she's not big enough for me to have to worry about her overpowering me. So while I do try and keep watch for anything she might react to, it's not like I'm fretting about it.

At most, it's a little embarrassing.

So you see a dog and person coming what do you do? How are you trying to correct her, do you give her a command like sit or no etc? Do you pull her back or do you give a correction to the side? Makes a big difference in which way you are holding the leash and how and when the correction is given. You also asked about training without praise or treats or harsh corrections, what do you think is a harsh correction?

 

[broccolini]

I don't mean any offense by what I'm about to say, so please don't take it the wrong way, and I may be way off anyway, but just a thought. Maybe you simply aren't exuding the kind of confidence required for a breed of this stature and she feels the need to step up when approached by other dogs? Most times the simplest explanation is the correct one...

No offense taken. I don't feel like I'm not confident. She's not my first dog with this sort of temperament and like I said, I'm not worried about her actions because I'm not in danger of losing control of her. Our other TM is not like this at all. He has yet to meet a dog he doesn't like.

She has challenged every dog she's met since she was 10 weeks old. And it's not like I ever let another dog hurt her. She's never been attacked by another dog. We didn't do dog parks. We did controlled play dates. We did puppy classes. We've taken her everywhere since we brought her home.

Do you think she should be worried about dogs that I'm not worried about? I could understand her attitude if we were approached by strange aggressive dogs, but most of the dogs we encounter are pretty mellow. Except for the small yappy ones.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm causing her to act out. I just don't know what I'm doing or not doing specifically to cause it. I understand the need to maintain a calm, confident attitude. She's not pushy or dominate with me otherwise. She will drop her tug toys on command, she waits for me to go through doors(she just does this, we didn't have to train it), I can handle her food while she's eating. She's got good focus when we do training.

Do I really need to jump up and scare away all the other dogs before they get too close to her? How do I communicate to her that she doesn't need to challenge every new dog she sees? Is that even possible? Could she just be really dominate with other dogs? Am I secretly afraid of the 6lb Boston Terrier and she knows it? Will it just take more time to get it through her head?

These are the things I want a professional to tell me. If it is all my fault, I will let you all know exactly what it is I'm doing to cause it. I just want to know so I can direct my efforts in the right place.

 

[Hector]

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm just looking for some easy answer instead of putting in the time. That's really not the case. I just think at this point I want more specific guidance and methods that don't rely on food, praise or overly harsh corrections.

I'd rather give one hard correction and have the dog respect my commands and learning what is expected of them than constantly correcting them for the same problem.

 

[mountainfila]

No offense taken. I don't feel like I'm not confident. She's not my first dog with this sort of temperament and like I said, I'm not worried about her actions because I'm not in danger of losing control of her. Our other TM is not like this at all. He has yet to meet a dog he doesn't like.

She has challenged every dog she's met since she was 10 weeks old. And it's not like I ever let another dog hurt her. She's never been attacked by another dog. We didn't do dog parks. We did controlled play dates. We did puppy classes. We've taken her everywhere since we brought her home.

Do you think she should be worried about dogs that I'm not worried about? I could understand her attitude if we were approached by strange aggressive dogs, but most of the dogs we encounter are pretty mellow. Except for the small yappy ones.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm causing her to act out. I just don't know what I'm doing or not doing specifically to cause it. I understand the need to maintain a calm, confident attitude. She's not pushy or dominate with me otherwise. She will drop her tug toys on command, she waits for me to go through doors(she just does this, we didn't have to train it), I can handle her food while she's eating. She's got good focus when we do training.

Do I really need to jump up and scare away all the other dogs before they get too close to her? How do I communicate to her that she doesn't need to challenge every new dog she sees? Is that even possible? Could she just be really dominate with other dogs? Am I secretly afraid of the 6lb Boston Terrier and she knows it? Will it just take more time to get it through her head?

These are the things I want a professional to tell me. If it is all my fault, I will let you all know exactly what it is I'm doing to cause it. I just want to know so I can direct my efforts in the right place.

I wouldnt think you would be afraid of the 6lb boston lol but you probably are tensing up because of the reaction your dog is going to give you, your already continplating her reaction of trying to attack the other dog, you have been conditioned to accept this reaction and you dont like it. How do you deal with her when a dog comes towards her, you have not said what you do to correct her.

 

[Hector]

MountainFila, I'm going to turn this around cause I want your input:

If you're out with one or more of your pack, and you see a guy approaching, and you can tell he's not going to give your dogs a wide berth, how do you handle your dogs? What do you do?

I know the situation isn't truely identical, Fila's are SUPPOSED to not like strangers while TMs aren't supposed to be dog aggressive like this (though some are) unless the dog is a threat......I am kinda wondering if unknown dogs are pegging her threat meter to some degree. Maybe because she was an only pup litter, or maybe because thats just how her brain works. But when you add that into a TMs natural "gonna do what I want regardless" thought process....

I know this is addressed to MF, but I take my fila out and we have encountered many people and offleash dogs. Hector is pretty aloof to people on walks because a person in sight means strict heel. If it is a surprise appearance, then my gut reaction is jerking him back like giving him a correction and he just sits. We have encountered a number of offleash dogs and I will put him in a sit/stay and make sure his body language is okay for me to address the other dog and then I will get between him and the loose dog. In a situation like this there is no time for disobedience because it can get really ugly really quick. I haven't needed to correct him in such a situation, but I am well prepared for that and I carry pepper spray.

If we do get into situations without much room to escape, then I sit/stay my dog and stand between him and the person and this can only happen for us in a pet store.