Training by Ommission

[season]

By: Sean O'Shea
TGD Tip: training by omission

What you don't say "no" to behavior you're saying "yes".

If your dog jumps on you or others and you don't correct it, you're training jumping. If your dog pulls on-leash and you don't correct it, you're training pulling. If your dog explodes on walks at other dogs and you don't correct it, you're training reactivity. If your dog growls at you when you sit too close/walk by too closely and you don't correct it, you're training possessiveness. If your dog growls when you get too close when food/toys/chews are around and you don't correct it, you're training resource guarding. If your dog barks/explodes at every dog that goes by your fence and you don't correct it, you're training fence fighting. If your dog bark or whines from the crate and you don't correct it, you're training barking and whining. If your dog barks/explodes at people and dogs who walk by the window and you don't correct it, you're training territorial silliness.

The truth is, whatever you allow you're actually training. That might not be your intent. You may yell "No!" or physically interrupt or stop the behavior, but that's not correcting. That's interrupting and stopping. That means you've stopped it for the moment, but the behavior will almost certainly be there the next time the trigger occurs. But a correction, done right, means you actually diminish the intensity and frequency of the behavior in the future, and that's a big difference.

The point I want folks to get is, if you allow behavior you're training behavior. (Ignoring, even though lots of trainers recommend it, is also allowing!) The only way to reduce a problem behavior is to address it and correct it. Make it not "ok". Ensure there's actually a consequence - that the dog values. Make that choice uncomfortable and it will start to recede and diminish. Allow it to be practiced without consequence and it will get worse and worse.


Carpe Diem

 

[Nik]

I was just about to post on this topic. You read my mind Season. Most of the training in our house is done with NILF and positive reinforcement. But I do believe there is a time and a place for common sense consequences. I had an incident with Diesel that proved my point and my boss had an incident with his (human) toddler that also proved this point well recently.

First the story about my boss. My boss and his wife strongly subscribe to positive reinforcement for their human child. To an extreme that honestly shocks and concerns me. Their child (2 year old) never has any negative consequences to any action. No spanking . No time outs. No scolding. No taking away toys. No punishments as they believe it will damage his developing personality. Well his 2 year old recently entered a phase where he thinks it is funny to bite and scratch and hurt his dad. He has come into the office several times with deep gouges on his face (nail scratches) and bite marks. When the child does these things they try to reason with him "It isn't nice to scratch and bite daddy." None of this made a bit of difference.

Recently he came in after a weekend without fresh cuts on his face. And I exclaimed "Oh have things improved then? No bites and scratches today?" My boss looking all upset and sad explains "I feel terrible. He went bit me and went to do it again and without thinking I flicked his forehead. He cried and cried but then afterward he came up and said "No biting"". To me this is a clear sign that consequences even a relatively minor flick gets through to the child when reasoning and positive reinforcement does not. The boss still doesn't believe that and just feels guilt.

Now for Diesel. His training is actually going very well. But one area that has been an issue is that while he waits to cross through door ways until we give the command "cross" he struggles with the command "slow". So as soon as we give him the cross command he goes charging through and ignores our "slow" command. When he is on leash this goes better but in the house doing regular daily things he ignores "slow". He is smart enough to know we aren't holding a leash and can't stop it. With his cone this is especially frustrating because when he goes charging he knocks stuff over. Today he went charging and knocked over my computer and cup of coffee. I went into "seeing red" mode and yelled at him in anger. Pretty much ranting and raging. The result was he immediately went to his place and laid down politely while I ranted and yelled and cleaned the mess.

Now here is the good part. Because afterwards I thought perhaps the good behavior was simply fear of my anger. Not anything learned at all. But, for the rest of the day (so far) every time I give him the "cross and slow" commands he listens! He moves at a snail pace and is brilliant in his obedience. What I have learned is that Diesel doesn't like me to yell and be angry. This is a bad consequence for him. He is now making an effort to obey the slow command and taking it to an extreme... really he couldn't possibly move slower than he has been when I tell him slow.

So yes I believe in consequences (within reason). By the way the laying in place ended as soon as I sat down to my computer (after cleaning everything) and started working. But, he just crawled up onto the couch beside me and snuggled in. He is such a manipulative little kiss up when he wants to get out of trouble.... And it works.

 

[season]

^^^Nice. Hey, I'm all for praise and positivity when it's earned. I'm also all for correcting and consequences when need be. Too many ppl hear or read "correction and consequences" and automatically assume you're beating the hell out of your dog. It's silly.


Carpe Diem

 

[Boxergirl]

Conversely, too many people hear positive and think permissive. Perhaps everyone should be a little more open minded.

 

[Hiraeth]

Conversely, too many people hear positive and think permissive. Perhaps everyone should be a little more open minded.

Indeed. I've never corrected my dog, or punished him. For anything. Yet, somehow, I have an 11 month old Dane who just passed his CGC practice test with flying colors and is an incredibly well mannered dog.

It's almost like we're all individual dog owners with individual dogs who respond well to differentiated training regimens!

 

[marke]

i was just recently over my daughters husbands parents house for a birthday ...... they had a new pup as their old dog had died and their middle aged dog was not used to being by itself , so they got a pup .... these folks have obviously always had dogs , never even thought about getting a trainer , and probably never read a book or watched a video on dog training .... the pup went in the garden , my son in laws father grabbed it by the collar pulled it out and told him no , took about three times and on the last times the dog got out on his own as he walked towards it telling him no ...... i never saw the pup in the garden the rest of the time i was there ...... i thought to myself how ridiculous it would be to complicate such a common sense approach ........ and a cgc title doesn't mean your dog can reliably live in your house unsupervised ........ they still may chew your furniture , take stuff off your counter , dig holes in your backyard , mark your front door , take your food off the coffee table and the countless other behaviors that make a dog unsuitable to be trusted alone .....

 

[Nik]

Boxergirl and Hiraeth - 100% on board with each dog learning differently. My Cerberus was very sensitive to any even somewhat negative stimuli and his training was drastically different as a result.

He was also claustrophobic and would hyperventilate and vomit when in any enclosed space so no crate training for him.

There is no one size fits all method when it comes to dogs or children ...




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[Iulicris88]

I don't crate my dog so I need to know it is as safe as possible for him to be unsupervised in the house or in the yard. So, I need to teach him that there are things he's not supposed to get into, like the trash can or the rose bushes (he's been known to eat one or two in his time). I don't see how I could do this without correction. It's not like I abuse my dog. Hell, he's probably more pampered than 99% percent of the kids in the world. But he also needs to have a set of rules he has to live within. It's not like humans don't get corrected for their bad behavior, in a way or another, so why shouldn't dogs?

 

[season]

Conversely, too many people hear positive and think permissive. Perhaps everyone should be a little more open minded.

Totally agree! Well said!


Carpe Diem

 

[sjdavenport]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Correcting or ignoring aren't the ONLY ways of addressing unwanted behavior. Personally, I prefer to train my dogs without corrections, and I'm a bit tired of people insisting that's impossible to end up with a well mannered, trustworthy dog without them. It's worked with all of my dogs. Will I run across a dog in the future who might need a different training approach? Perhaps. But until then, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. I'm not totally against corrections, I just hate when people insist it's the ONLY way. I agree that none of the behaviors listed in the original post should simply be ignored, but they most certainly can be fixed without corrections or consequences or whatever you'd like to call it.

 

[sjdavenport]

I don't crate my dog so I need to know it is as safe as possible for him to be unsupervised in the house or in the yard. So, I need to teach him that there are things he's not supposed to get into, like the trash can or the rose bushes (he's been known to eat one or two in his time). I don't see how I could do this without correction. It's not like I abuse my dog. Hell, he's probably more pampered than 99% percent of the kids in the world. But he also needs to have a set of rules he has to live within. It's not like humans don't get corrected for their bad behavior, in a way or another, so why shouldn't dogs?

I don't crate any of my dogs either. None were trained with corrections. I stopped crating my corso at 6 or 7 months. All are completely trustworthy in the house. No countersurfing, no chewing, no garbage eating. Our trash can lid actually got broken in our recent move, and we haven't gotten around to getting a new one, so we've been without a lid on the trash can for a month now. The dogs are home alone all day. No one has touched it. It can definitely be done.

 

[DennasMom]

I have a feeling we all have different definitions of "correction", too.

My feeling is that the correction must match the energy level of the infraction for it to be motivational (understood and effective). If you are a really good and attentive pet-parent, you can catch your dog before they get too out-of-control, and use a soft sound cue ('eh, eh' or 'hey'), body language or 'mom glare' as the "correction" without ever touching the dog or yelling at the dog... you might not consider that a "correction"... but if it fixed the problem, i.e. corrected the behavior... the dog recognized it as a correction, and it was therefore a correction by definition.

Another example would be keeping the dog leashed to you as a puppy... and when they go to move away from you, they hit the end of the leash... that is self-correcting... but it's still a correction (by my definition).

Hiraeth & sjdavenport - when teaching your puppy a "Place" command... what did you do when the puppy left the "place"? once the puppy understood the command, did he then NEVER test the limits again??

 

[season]

I have a feeling we all have different definitions of "correction", too.

My feeling is that the correction must match the energy level of the infraction for it to be motivational (understood and effective). If you are a really good and attentive pet-parent, you can catch your dog before they get too out-of-control, and use a soft sound cue ('eh, eh' or 'hey'), body language or 'mom glare' as the "correction" without ever touching the dog or yelling at the dog... you might not consider that a "correction"... but if it fixed the problem, i.e. corrected the behavior... the dog recognized it as a correction, and it was therefore a correction by definition.

Another example would be keeping the dog leashed to you as a puppy... and when they go to move away from you, they hit the end of the leash... that is self-correcting... but it's still a correction (by my definition).

Hiraeth & sjdavenport - when teaching your puppy a "Place" command... what did you do when the puppy left the "place"? once the puppy understood the command, did he then NEVER test the limits again??

Well said!


Carpe Diem

 

[Boxergirl]

Well, to me correction is to show the correct way to do something. There are many ways to do that that don't require physical "corrections" or even words. It's my opinion that most people that say correction actually mean punishment. I mean really, call it what it is. If it's a harsh enough "correction" to be "believable" then it's a punishment. Nothing wrong with coming right out and saying it.

I'm not Hiraeth or sjdavenport, but when working on mat work (place) if the dog leaves the mat before being released, they are simply put back. I don't say anything, I just put them back. I think we people talk too much during training. If I've asked them to do something, and made sure that they understand what I'm asking of them, then I don't need to be talking. Also - ignoring isn't always the same as allowing. Positive trainers don't just allow a dog to jump and jump and jump on them, contrary to what compulsion trainers like to think. It's that whole positive=permissive mind set, and it's just not true.

I like a clicker for training. It's a unique sound and precisely marks the exact instant of the correct behavior the same way every time. Clicking the second the butt hits the floor and then rewarding for that works very well and doesn't require any punishment of any kind. It works for us in a multitude of situations. Everyone should do what works for them. Just don't come to my house and use your technique on my dogs and I won't use mine on your dogs unless asked.

 

[sjdavenport]

I agree with everything Boxergirl said. We all know the word "correction" can be very open to interpretation, and that's were so much of this debate comes in, but I know exactly what Sean O'Shea is referring to when when he says correction - a physical reprimand using prong collar or e-collar. This is what he says following this post on Facebook - "Make things you don't want the dog to do uncomfortable. How? The list that folks use loooong! From grandpa's newspaper,to squirt bottles, to shake cans, to prong collars, to remote collars, to bonkers and on and on. Here at TGD we use primarily prong collars and e-collars." So in the context of this thread, when I say I train without corrections, I'm not talking about corrections in terms of showing the dog the right thing to do (which is how I think it SHOULD be used), I'm talking about a physical reprimand or punishment. I'm not saying it's abusive either, I'm just saying I don't do it. As far as training the place command, or anything else for that matter, I will use a no reward marker (uh oh), a cheerful interrupter, or simply put the dog back as Boxergirl said.

 

[Smokeycat]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Correcting or ignoring aren't the ONLY ways of addressing unwanted behavior. Personally, I prefer to train my dogs without corrections, and I'm a bit tired of people insisting that's impossible to end up with a well mannered, trustworthy dog without them. It's worked with all of my dogs. Will I run across a dog in the future who might need a different training approach? Perhaps. But until then, I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing. I'm not totally against corrections, I just hate when people insist it's the ONLY way. I agree that none of the behaviors listed in the original post should simply be ignored, but they most certainly can be fixed without corrections or consequences or whatever you'd like to call it.

I agree with this with the added cravat that I also hate when people say that positive training is the only way to do it. I distrust advice given by either group of "it's the only way" as their bias tends to blind them to the whole picture.

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[Smokeycat]

On a side note training posts from "it's the only way" people can create for some funny reading. Just last week someone used how I finally managed to teach Jiggers not to bite as an example of training that sole purpose was to create fear and scare the dog into stopping the behavior. Maybe it would have scared a weak willed or fearful dog but that's not what I was dealing with. Their inability to realize that not all dogs respond to the same training makes them unable to accept that instead of scaring him that method startled and confused him enough to break out of the mindset he was in whenever those biting incidents occurred. Once he could think again he quickly realized that that sensation only occurred when he bit and if he didn't want to feel it all he had to do was not bite. Non-adversive methods failed for close to a year, a couple of methods tried actually made it worse, a minor aversive took a couple of weeks.
In my opinion positive methods should always be the first method but if they fail aversive has its place.

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[marke]

my pup squats to pee in front of me , i yell no and take them outside , that's a correction , the pup was startled and didn't like being picked up ...... i showed him the incorrect and correct behavior .......... my pup attacks another pup , i tell them no and pull him off the other pup , he doesn't like it and bites me , i swat his nose or grab the nape of his neck and tell him no , they eventually stop both because they don't like the consequence , they know what i want , and they know i'm going to get it , those are corrections ........ my dog chews my dog door , i put cayenne pepper on it , they chew it again and it burns their mouth , they stop chewing it , that's a correction ....... dog starts to pull on the harness , i snap the leash , they don't like it and stop pulling , that's a correction , i showed them what was wrong and they figured out what was right ....... corrections are not just showing a dog what is correct , honestly you need not correct a correct behavior , corrections are showing them what's incorrect ........ if my dog has a habit of going on the counter and i distract him into doing something else and reward him , i corrected nothing ...... if you don't teach them what's wrong and what's right , i honestly don't get it , how are they supposed to know ? your honestly not letting your dogs know when they do something wrong right in front of you , like pee on your carpet , chew the leg of your couch , bark at the gate incessantly , dig a hole in your carpet , jump up in the window and tear down your blinds ................... i've raised 2-3 pups at a time by myself , with a full time job , many times , and i read this stuff and just shake my head , some of you must have some mentally fragile dogs , mine are outgoing , bold , friendly , nosey , well adjusted dogs ................ .

Simple Definition of correction: a change that makes something right, true, accurate, etc.: the act of making something (such as an error or a bad condition) accurate or better : the act of correcting something: the act or process of punishing and changing the behavior of people who have committed crimes ( US )

 

[Boxergirl]

my pup squats to pee in front of me , i yell no and take them outside , that's a correction , the pup was startled and didn't like being picked up ...... i showed him the incorrect and correct behavior .......... my pup attacks another pup , i tell them no and pull him off the other pup , he doesn't like it and bites me , i swat his nose or grab the nape of his neck and tell him no , they eventually stop both because they don't like the consequence , they know what i want , and they know i'm going to get it , those are corrections ........ my dog chews my dog door , i put cayenne pepper on it , they chew it again and it burns their mouth , they stop chewing it , that's a correction ....... dog starts to pull on the harness , i snap the leash , they don't like it and stop pulling , that's a correction , i showed them what was wrong and they figured out what was right ....... corrections are not just showing a dog what is correct , honestly you need not correct a correct behavior , corrections are showing them what's incorrect ........ if my dog has a habit of going on the counter and i distract him into doing something else and reward him , i corrected nothing ...... if you don't teach them what's wrong and what's right , i honestly don't get it , how are they supposed to know ? your honestly not letting your dogs know when they do something wrong right in front of you , like pee on your carpet , chew the leg of your couch , bark at the gate incessantly , dig a hole in your carpet , jump up in the window and tear down your blinds ................... i've raised 2-3 pups at a time by myself , with a full time job , many times , and i read this stuff and just shake my head , some of you must have some mentally fragile dogs , mine are outgoing , bold , friendly , nosey , well adjusted dogs ................ .

Marke, sometimes I feel as if you just post to be contrary. Nobody said your way was wrong or doesn't work. What you are describing, however, are punishments. Call them corrections if you like, but it doesn't change what they are. Punishment works, we all know that. It teaches what NOT to do. It does not, however, always teach what TO do. For example your peeing scenario. By yelling and startling the pup you've taught it not to pee in the house in front of you. You did not teach it to pee outside. You taught that when it pees in the house, in your presence, it gets yelled at and whisked outside. Now if puppy finishes peeing outside after that and you reward it in some way, you've shown it what the correct behavior was - or at least the behavior that pleases you. Again - punishment works. It works through discomfort and often fear. I choose to train in another way. I correct my dogs, but it's never through physical punishment or by using fear.

 

[marke]

Marke, sometimes I feel as if you just post to be contrary. Nobody said your way was wrong or doesn't work. What you are describing, however, are punishments. Call them corrections if you like, but it doesn't change what they are. Punishment works, we all know that. It teaches what NOT to do. It does not, however, always teach what TO do. For example your peeing scenario. By yelling and startling the pup you've taught it not to pee in the house in front of you. You did not teach it to pee outside. You taught that when it pees in the house, in your presence, it gets yelled at and whisked outside. Now if puppy finishes peeing outside after that and you reward it in some way, you've shown it what the correct behavior was - or at least the behavior that pleases you. Again - punishment works. It works through discomfort and often fear. I choose to train in another way. I correct my dogs, but it's never through physical punishment or by using fear.

well it certainly doesn't just teach them not to pee in the house in front of me , cause i've never , ever , had a problem housebreaking a pup , or a litter of pups ........ when your pup squats to pee on your carpet in front of you , what do you do ? i assume from what you wrote you try not to startle it ? or whisk it outside , you let it finish? when your dog goes on the counter in front of you , what do you do ? call it down ? how does it know not to go back when your not there ? what exactly is the correct behavior you teach them as opposed to going on the counter for food ? i'm not being contrary to be contrary , some folks might actually believe this stuff about never correcting their dogs because they'll permanently damage them ........ the process of learning is actually pretty well understood , the way an animal learns is not changing ........ learning through negative consequences is a normal and natural part of learning , it is a necessary part of learning , if you have a dog that cannot withstand a reasonable correction , for some reason you have a mentally disabled dog ............. corrections are not showing a dog what's right , it's correcting a wrong behavior ...... seems to me all the semantics and extreme examples come from the corrections will ruin your dog side ...... you all like to use the term physical punishment , and fear ....... i assure you , i've been around dogs a long time , and my dogs are far from fearful of anything , they trust me , they'll go anywhere and do anything i ask ........ they use corrections on police and military dogs , they use corrections on seeing eye dogs ..........