Training by Ommission

[marke]

personally i think it's more common sense than opinion .

Scientists have long known that mistakes are conducive to learning, suggesting the reason lies in the element of surprise upon finding out we are wrong. But how the brain manages to learn from mistakes and how quickly it does so have been unknowns. “It's a bit of a clich* to say that we learn more from our mistakes than our successes,†said lead author of the study Andy Wills, a psychologist at the University of Exeter, “but for the first time we’ve established just how quickly the brain works to help us avoid repeating errors.â€

Study Reveals Why We Learn From Mistakes

mistakes are essential steppingstones. They’re vital for growth and creativity. “If we don’t focus on process over product, we cannot be innovators. We cannot learn about ourselves and learn about the world.†Think of trial and error learning. “With no trial, there’s no error and no learning,†said Mogel, also author of The Blessing of a Skinned Knee and The Blessing of a B Minus. And the reality is we’re going to make mistakes, said Alina Tugend, a journalist and author of Better By Mistake: The Unexpected Benefits of Being Wrong. “There’s no way to protect ourselves.â€

Rethinking Mistakes Learning From Your Missteps | World of Psychology

It’s a Mistake Not to Use Mistakes as Part of the Learning Process

It’s a Mistake Not to Use Mistakes as Part of the Learning Process | Edutopia

Mistakes: A key to learning Scientists discover that we remember our errors, which is a good thing

Mistakes: A key to learning | Science News for Students

 

[Boxergirl]

I'm still not seeing that as of last year Guide Dogs for the Blind or Leader Dogs uses aversive training.

Frequently Asked Questions | Leader Dogs for the Blind

http://www.guidedogs.com/site/PageServer?pagename=programs_dog_guide

A head halter is not supposed to deliver punishment. Here's something from Susan Garrett. She is NOT and "all positive" trainer. I will say that I'm not a fan of head halters myself.

Head Halters VS A Flat Buckle Collar | Susan Garretts Dog Training Blog

I think that it's difficult for some people to compare different training styles and philosophies if they haven't really given them a chance. I don't know of any PR trainers that have gone back to compulsion training. I know many, many that have gone from compulsion training to PR. I used compulsion training and many years ago I had to undo the damage I'd done to a dog from believing all the alpha rolling crap. Yes, I called it crap. I would have used a stronger word, but I didn't want to be rude. I've tried a prong. I've tried a head halter. I now prefer a harness with both front and back hooks and use them almost exclusively. I also use a clicker in training, and not just for training tricks. My opinions aren't based on what I read or what a message board tells me. I've not raised more than six dogs from puppies, but I rehabilitated and trained many more during my time as a foster for the difficult dogs coming into rescue. I've found that positive reinforcement without punishment that causes physical or emotional (yelling, threatening, etc) gives me dogs that think. Dogs that aren't afraid to try new things. I've found that the dogs trained with positive reinforcement seem to be much more reliable in their behaviors. It's also my opinion that dogs trained without fear of punishment for making a mistake have better personalities. That's purely anecdotal, but my relatives have dogs that still have their feet stomped on when they jump, etc and those dogs are just dogs with very little personality. I much prefer my dogs curiosity and willingness to learn new things from trial and error. It's a great thing to watch.

I have a daughter that will be pursuing a specialty in behavior after she takes her VTNE and then attending the Karen Pryor Academy and also pursuing an internship at Wolf Park to study behavior. I look forward to learning from her. I look forward to being open minded about any advancements in behavior and training that she will be exposed to over the years. Learning is always a good thing.

 

[marke]

can't ever remember a need to stomp on my dogs feet ? i'd have a problem with someone i saw do that ? they'd for sure only do it once around me ......... While I’ve never used a head halter I know how they work , the dog pulls , they get their head pulled down and to the side , the harder they pull the harder their head is pulled down and to the side , they stop pulling to stop getting their head pulled down and to the side ? with the weimaraners I have used the harness that pinches the front legs together and turns the dog to the side , same principle I’d guess …. The dog stops pulling because they don’t like the result of pulling ……… the manuals I posted are not the actual puppy raising manuals from these two groups ? the instructions for corrections are in both of them , along with the proper use of a choke chain ? and I really didn’t read too far into them …… did you ever see how they teach a guide dog traffic ? sure looked aversive to me ? probably because it matters ?

 

[Hiraeth]

personally i think it's more common sense than opinion . Study Reveals Why We Learn From Mistakes Rethinking Mistakes Learning From Your Missteps | World of Psychology It*s a Mistake Not to Use Mistakes as Part of the Learning Process | Edutopia Mistakes: A key to learning | Science News for Students

Didn't you literally JUST say ".... in case some of you have not noticed , a dogs reasoning is quite a bit more limited than a persons"? And then you're going to link a bunch of research into the human learning process like it's relevant?

The inconsistencies in your arguments make them unbelievable and laughable. And, just for your information, "personally i think it's more common sense than opinion" is also an opinion.

 

[marke]

yes i did , that's exactly why you have to show the dog when they make a mistake . you can't leave it up to the dog to figure it out themselves ..... i'd guess they have the reasoning of a 2-3yr old person

 

[Boxergirl]

The links I posted are from the current Leader Dogs and Guide Dogs for the Blind pages about their training techniques. I don't know how old the training manuals you posted are, but both organizations say they have moved away from that type of training and are now using positive reinforcement and clicker training.

 

[marke]

i use mostly positive reinforcement , doesn't mean i don't use corrections ? i could use a clicker and still use corrections ? the guide dogs for the blind manual is from 2008 , it's right on the cover .... lead dogs for the blind may be on the cover also ...... can you direct me to their current manual , if there is one ? i believe both of those manuals are off their current website ? the puppy with the head halter is positively from 2015 .

 

[Boxergirl]

This from '08
clickerexpo08

Michelle Pouliot: "Training Guide Dogs for the Blind"

Michelle Pouliot presented information on the training program for Guide Dogs for the Blind which has been converting over to clicker training. She presented some historical information about guide dog training and then showed how they are now adding in clicker training. I didn't know much about guide dog training so I was interested to see how they taught some of the behaviors. They use treadmills to teach the dogs to lead and the movie clips showed that the dogs really love the treadmill training. She had movie clips that showed them teaching the dogs to respond to the collar, ignore food on the ground and back up in a straight line.

She also showed how they teach them to go around obstacles and about intelligent disobedience. They used to teach intelligent disobedience by asking the dog to proceed and then mimicking a fall or bad event. This was stressful on the dogs and with the use of the clicker, they came up with a better way by asking the dog to go forward and clicking before the dog could respond. The dog learned to evaluate the safety of the situation before responding to the command "forward."

I thought it was interesting to see how they had added clicker work into their training and I loved seeing how happy the dogs were when they were working. So even though I am not doing guide dog work, I was happy to have attended this session.

 

[Hiraeth]

I think that it's difficult for some people to compare different training styles and philosophies if they haven't really given them a chance. I don't know of any PR trainers that have gone back to compulsion training. I know many, many that have gone from compulsion training to PR. I used compulsion training and many years ago I had to undo the damage I'd done to a dog from believing all the alpha rolling crap. Yes, I called it crap. I would have used a stronger word, but I didn't want to be rude. I've tried a prong. I've tried a head halter. I now prefer a harness with both front and back hooks and use them almost exclusively. I also use a clicker in training, and not just for training tricks. My opinions aren't based on what I read or what a message board tells me. I've not raised more than six dogs from puppies, but I rehabilitated and trained many more during my time as a foster for the difficult dogs coming into rescue. I've found that positive reinforcement without punishment that causes physical or emotional (yelling, threatening, etc) gives me dogs that think. Dogs that aren't afraid to try new things. I've found that the dogs trained with positive reinforcement seem to be much more reliable in their behaviors. It's also my opinion that dogs trained without fear of punishment for making a mistake have better personalities. That's purely anecdotal, but my relatives have dogs that still have their feet stomped on when they jump, etc and those dogs are just dogs with very little personality. I much prefer my dogs curiosity and willingness to learn new things from trial and error. It's a great thing to watch.

I have a daughter that will be pursuing a specialty in behavior after she takes her VTNE and then attending the Karen Pryor Academy and also pursuing an internship at Wolf Park to study behavior. I look forward to learning from her. I look forward to being open minded about any advancements in behavior and training that she will be exposed to over the years. Learning is always a good thing.

It's not just "difficult" to accurately compare training styles unless both styles have been tried, it's impossible. Only ignorant people claim that a certain method doesn't work without having given the method a shot themselves.

I also know no one who has gone from compulsion training to PR and then switched back to compulsion. I do know a lot of people who sit on their compulsion training thrones and spew ignorance to the masses that PR will never work and creates unreliable dogs who are spoiled despite the scientific evidence that the opposite is true. There will always be people like this, and not just in dog training. In my mind, people who think a solely positive training method doesn't work are like anti-vaccers. Despite all of the scientific evidence in their faces that vaccines are necessary for the health and safety of their children, they rely on uninformed opinion, faulty science and anecdotal evidence to support their claims that vaccinations are unhealthy.

As irritating as it is that these people exist and as difficult as it is to ignore them, it's a waste of both your time and my time to argue with a brick wall. We should spend our time having educational conversations with people who are willing to listen, and people who we disagree with but we are willing to learn from.

 

[marke]

i've shown you , off their current website , how they advise their puppies are raised , both of those manuals are directly off their current websites ....... is this off their website ?

and then showed how they are now ADDING in clicker training

adding in ? where can i find the news of their new method on their current website ? as far as positive reinforcement not working , that'd be just plain stupid .... it works great for me ............ as far as finding real working dogs raised without corrections , won't happen ...... Seasons guy says show him some , i say show me one , and i'll respond ...... i'm out

 

[Boxergirl]

I'm not sure if you were addressing me in your above post, Marke, but I did contact Guide Dogs and ask some questions. First though email and then by phone.

The email answer was this: "You are correct that we are using positive reinforcement including clicker training. All of our training is geared towards promoting positive training. In regards to aversive methods, we use collar corrections."

As per my phone conversation, it appears that the corrections are generally in the form of leash pressure. There are a lot of videos from them showing handlers using leash pressure (gentle leash pressure) and lots of rewards. Leash pressure done properly, to me, is not a correction so much as it is a cue. I'm not saying that no corrections are used. It was never suggested that these organizations were "purely positive" in their training. What does seem clear is that they are moving away from compulsion based training and seeing the benefit of using more positive training methods rather than punitive.

 

[marke]

absolutely , i have no problem believing that . i'd imagine the actual training has never had much need for aversive consequences anyway ? these dogs have been bred for tractability for decades .... i am of the opinion they will never be able to train even these dogs without any aversive consequences . these dogs are 14-16 months old i believe before these people get ahold of them . they respond to leash pressure because they have been leash corrected , with choke collars and head harnesses ....... it doesn't take much to be aversive to a tractable puppy ..... once you get a handle on a pup ," corrections " won't really be needed for anything .... given a disrespectful adult , i can't judge anyone on that , i never had that problem , i get respect from the pups and keep it , it's easy ...... if a dog comes to these guide dog groups like most 14 month old dogs of stubborn , drivier breeds , they reject it , because they can't train it .......... i was cleaning the kitchen today , i threw a chicken wrapper in the garbage , next thing i knew one of the pups had his head in the garbage , all i had to say was "gus , get out of there" , didn't need to yell at him , or even get excited , took his head out the garbage and walked away ....... not because he was afraid , there was not even a moment of anxiety for that dog . he left it alone because he knew , from his entire short life , he didn't have a choice , and he sure as heck didn't think he was gonna trade up , lol ...... when i read folks telling folks negative consequences ruin your relationship with your dog , will make your dog mean or fearful and you need to give them choices , i just shake my head ........ what choices do i give that pup as opposed to going in that garbage bag and getting something to eat ? i give him none .... dogs don't hold grudges ...... i was up at 3am friday morning breaking up a full blown fight outside my bedroom window , trying to locate and clean wounds , stop some bleeding and round up some antibiotics , back to bed and up an hour later to those two dogs curled up together on the floor ......... aversive corrections are the most powerful non-medical behavior modifier there is , they need to be used in exactly the right way , on the right dog , at the right time...it's not rocket science , but someone misusing them can very easily can ruin a dog/pup....

 

[season]

absolutely , i have no problem believing that . i'd imagine the actual training has never had much need for aversive consequences anyway ? these dogs have been bred for tractability for decades .... i am of the opinion they will never be able to train even these dogs without any aversive consequences . these dogs are 14-16 months old i believe before these people get ahold of them . they respond to leash pressure because they have been leash corrected , with choke collars and head harnesses ....... it doesn't take much to be aversive to a tractable puppy ..... once you get a handle on a pup ," corrections " won't really be needed for anything .... given a disrespectful adult , i can't judge anyone on that , i never had that problem , i get respect from the pups and keep it , it's easy ...... if a dog comes to these guide dog groups like most 14 month old dogs of stubborn , drivier breeds , they reject it , because they can't train it .......... i was cleaning the kitchen today , i threw a chicken wrapper in the garbage , next thing i knew one of the pups had his head in the garbage , all i had to say was "gus , get out of there" , didn't need to yell at him , or even get excited , took his head out the garbage and walked away ....... not because he was afraid , there was not even a moment of anxiety for that dog . he left it alone because he knew , from his entire short life , he didn't have a choice , and he sure as heck didn't think he was gonna trade up , lol ...... when i read folks telling folks negative consequences ruin your relationship with your dog , will make your dog mean or fearful and you need to give them choices , i just shake my head ........ what choices do i give that pup as opposed to going in that garbage bag and getting something to eat ? i give him none .... dogs don't hold grudges ...... i was up at 3am friday morning breaking up a full blown fight outside my bedroom window , trying to locate and clean wounds , stop some bleeding and round up some antibiotics , back to bed and up an hour later to those two dogs curled up together on the floor ......... aversive corrections are the most powerful non-medical behavior modifier there is , they need to be used in exactly the right way , on the right dog , at the right time...it's not rocket science , but someone misusing them can very easily can ruin a dog/pup....

Well said.


Carpe Diem

 

[Boxergirl]

they need to be used in exactly the right way , on the right dog , at the right time... but someone misusing them can very easily can ruin a dog/pup....

Which is exactly why I feel no one should ever be suggesting their use on a public forum. And that's not directed to you, Marke, even though I used your quote.

 

[marke]

Which is exactly why I feel no one should ever be suggesting their use on a public forum. And that's not directed to you, Marke, even though I used your quote.

that i totally understand .... i do agree the argument could come off as an argument that punishing bad behavior is all you have to do ....... i do like the term "balanced" , because that is what i believe it takes , and to be in balance takes way more positive consequences than negative consequences . if your correcting anywhere near as much as your rewarding , your doing something wrong ..... i've seen puppies injured by folks in the name of corrections , but then you see folks injure their own kids in the name of corrections , those folks shouldn't have dogs or kids , they don't have the demeanor for either ...... correcting a dog is a skill that requires a lot of common sense and patience , many folks correct out of frustration , too hard of a correction is counter productive , the dog's focus will turn to the correction and they'll never put it together with the behavior , and you'll ruin the dog as far as further learning until they've recovered from the correction ...... to continually over correct will out right ruin a dog ...... if i correct one of my dogs or puppies , they're over it like an instant after it happens , i make sure of that so there's no confusion about what they were corrected for .....

 

[Sinnister]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with punishing bad behaviour.

Nothing.