Breeders! Breeding and Rear sets

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Would you breed a dog with a "poor" rear set ie, straight stifle, high ass, over-angulated, cow hock etc? If so how would you go about "correcting" this fault? Or if you would at all?

My breed ( type) is notorious for poor rears, and despite the obvious faults I'm not sure why breeders are continuously breeding these traits. And not speaking about BYB's but "respectable" breeders. To me the matches don't quite seem to add up. I'll see cow-hock to over-angulated, high ass to "correct" rears? I'm just trying to figure out how does this "fix" the fault?

I know appearance wise it may not be "pretty" however if a dog has "good" to "decent" movement I won't make to much noise. Curious to everyone else's thought on this breeder or not.

 

[grazefull1]

im abit carious about this myself do u have pic show these types of rears?

 

[grazefull1]

Would you breed a dog with a "poor" rear set ie, straight stifle, high ass, over-angulated, cow hock etc? If so how would you go about "correcting" this fault? Or if you would at all?

My breed ( type) is notorious for poor rears, and despite the obvious faults I'm not sure why breeders are continuously breeding these traits. And not speaking about BYB's but "respectable" breeders. To me the matches don't quite seem to add up. I'll see cow-hock to over-angulated, high ass to "correct" rears? I'm just trying to figure out how does this "fix" the fault?

I know appearance wise it may not be "pretty" however if a dog has "good" to "decent" movement I won't make to much noise. Curious to everyone else's thought on this breeder or not.

for looks of course lol same for the GSD

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Yeah, kind of hard but this site should should get an idea.

Bullmastiff Club of Queensland

Rear Assembly

 

[grazefull1]

im abit carious about this myself do u have pic show these types of rears?

i ask cuz i may have have this on my girl n not even know it

 

[grazefull1]

i ask cuz i may have have this on my girl n not even know it

do u have any on danes?

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Not at the moment. I'll post some up later though

 

[DennasMom]

If the pup is "perfect" in every other way - looks and temperament, etc. - do the breeders hope to get a few puppies in the litter that do not show the rear-fault, and then use those to continue the line with all the other good things included?

Just a thought... if it's not a complete "fail" for breeding, maybe there are other considerations?
Not sure what the genetics are, or what cross you would need for the best chance of getting 'correct rears' in the puppies... maybe good breeders have the answer?

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

for looks of course lol same for the GSD

It is not that easy, when dealing with genetics.

If the pup is "perfect" in every other way - looks and temperament, etc. - do the breeders hope to get a few puppies in the litter that do not show the rear-fault, and then use those to continue the line with all the other good things included?

Just a thought... if it's not a complete "fail" for breeding, maybe there are other considerations?
Not sure what the genetics are, or what cross you would need for the best chance of getting 'correct rears' in the puppies... maybe good breeders have the answer?

I would imagine they are trying to correct what the fault is, if you take it back to a punnett square and just do it for hips it usually works out best if you are breeding correct to a fault as the most likely to give the desired result but that is if you were dealing with just one fault or only had to worry about one gene.

I have not seen many dogs fix themselves by breeding cow hocked to sickle or straight to over-angulation, but usually with breeding to a correct you will get some incorrect but hopefully a better chance of correct if there are sound rears in the genetics of the dogs you are breeding. The problem lies then with what if you make a worse fault with the gene blend on another aspect of the dog? What if you make a train wreck of the head, some breeder scrap the entire litter and some will take the lesser of evils. Depends on where you are at in your program and what you feel is the right thing to do. It is also never just about the two dogs in front of you, with genetics you have to take in the dogs behind the dogs in front of you as well.

 

[ruby55]

Ruby, the fawn in the middle, has a horrible rear end. This was taken 2 years ago when she was about 14 months old. It's not gotten any better. I'm ashamed to say that her co owner is seriously considering breeding her. She was out of a litter of 10, the breeder has kept track of 8 of them (she's 3+ yrs old now); and Ruby is the only one like this.
I spoke to the breeder of Ruby's mother, named Opal, at the bullmastiff nationals last week; she said this showed up 3 generations back in Opal's pedigree.
So now they're looking at all these studs, from different breeders, close enough to us so they don't have to fly semen in. Of course it will be at least 6 months before a breeding can occur, since Ruby has just this week gone into heat; no health testing done so far, but all available tests will be done. I'm assuming they will expect the same from the stud.
While Ruby's head neck & shoulders are beautiful as far as conformation goes, her rear is atrocious. Having said that, she moves very well; with the right person she appears to float. And she's very fast & agile. Her temperament is outstanding. She just received her THD (AKC therapy dog title).
So they're looking for a stud with a beautiful topline, excellent rear angulation, and a passable temperament.
I think this whole endeavor is insane.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

It is not that easy, when dealing with genetics.



I would imagine they are trying to correct what the fault is, if you take it back to a punnett square and just do it for hips it usually works out best if you are breeding correct to a fault as the most likely to give the desired result but that is if you were dealing with just one fault or only had to worry about one gene.

I have not seen many dogs fix themselves by breeding cow hocked to sickle or straight to over-angulation, but usually with breeding to a correct you will get some incorrect but hopefully a better chance of correct if there are sound rears in the genetics of the dogs you are breeding. The problem lies then with what if you make a worse fault with the gene blend on another aspect of the dog? What if you make a train wreck of the head, some breeder scrap the entire litter and some will take the lesser of evils. Depends on where you are at in your program and what you feel is the right thing to do. It is also never just about the two dogs in front of you, with genetics you have to take in the dogs behind the dogs in front of you as well.

Mary some very good points and I agree whole heartily with this. So in Corsi rears are not that much in "trouble" like most mastiffs? In GM's its a common sight. While most have "nice" fronts IMO the rears are mess. Most are cow hock or sickle, I see very few over-angulated dogs, in this breed. Its completely haphazard. Then I see pairings of just to me seemingly random dogs at will. Especially given their matches that could chance extremes on both ends. There are some breeders of EM that will breed a straight stifled dog to " correct" male in hopes to "correct" the fault. It sounds plausible but you know how nature can be.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

View attachment 34298Ruby, the fawn in the middle, has a horrible rear end. This was taken 2 years ago when she was about 14 months old. It's not gotten any better. I'm ashamed to say that her co owner is seriously considering breeding her. She was out of a litter of 10, the breeder has kept track of 8 of them (she's 3+ yrs old now); and Ruby is the only one like this.
I spoke to the breeder of Ruby's mother, named Opal, at the bullmastiff nationals last week; she said this showed up 3 generations back in Opal's pedigree.
So now they're looking at all these studs, from different breeders, close enough to us so they don't have to fly semen in. Of course it will be at least 6 months before a breeding can occur, since Ruby has just this week gone into heat; no health testing done so far, but all available tests will be done. I'm assuming they will expect the same from the stud.
While Ruby's head neck & shoulders are beautiful as far as conformation goes, her rear is atrocious. Having said that, she moves very well; with the right person she appears to float. And she's very fast & agile. Her temperament is outstanding. She just received her THD (AKC therapy dog title).
So they're looking for a stud with a beautiful topline, excellent rear angulation, and a passable temperament.
I think this whole endeavor is insane.

So its common in you breed to Ruby? There's a black bitch GM that has a rear just like Ruby's. Almost looks like the dog is standing on her "tippy toes" The dog was breed to a "heavy Harlequin" male I guess to "improve" the bitch's fault. They just had the pups so I'm curious as to how that will be when they mature. Do you notice Ruby more "winded" compared to the other girls? Does it look like she struggles in certain aspects? If you had full ownership of Ruby what would be your course of action?

Congrats on the THD!

 

[ruby55]

So its common in you breed to Ruby? There's a black bitch GM that has a rear just like Ruby's. Almost looks like the dog is standing on her "tippy toes" The dog was breed to a "heavy Harlequin" male I guess to "improve" the bitch's fault. They just had the pups so I'm curious as to how that will be when they mature. Do you notice Ruby more "winded" compared to the other girls? Does it look like she struggles in certain aspects? If you had full ownership of Ruby what would be your course of action?

Congrats on the THD!

Her straight legs don't seem to hinder her in motion, but it takes forever for her to gather herself to sit. One of the reasons I've been on the fence about getting her into rally, many many "sit" commands. She doesn't seem to get tired or winded more than the rest of them, & is usually ready & willing to run on a moment's notice. In fact, that's how she gets other dogs to play with her. She starts the "chase me!" dance, & off they go. We only let her play with large dogs, the smallest being a 70 pound black lab, because she likes to bump her running mate.
Now that Ruby's pretty much mature, I would consider spaying her. Although, there is more & more data out there to the contrary. Bottom line is there's no way in Hell I would breed her with that rear end in her pedigree.
I just attended a 4 hour seminar on breeding better dogs, the speaker was Dr. Carmen Battaglia, a noted AKC judge, breeder, and geneticist.
Breeding Better Dogs | Home
Fascinating seminar. Dr. B. has, on his website, two alternative ways of looking at pedigrees that can help pick out potential problems in a specific breeding. I've not had time to really study it, as I just got home yesterday. But I'm going to work on it with the stud/breeder they have in mind, since he's only a couple of hours away from us, & see if I can make Ruby's "Grandpa" understand how insane this would be. Besides, I'm terrified of what can happen to my Ruby-Booby. I whelp puppies for a living; I know what awful things can transpire.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I don't know enough about the genetics of it.

As a puppy buyer I don't know that it would turn me OFF a puppy, if one parent had a less than great rear as long as the other parent had a good rear and both parents were health tested and otherwise appropriate to their breed....

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Ruby thank you for the link bookmarked for some future reading.

That's good to hear about it being nothing more than an eyesore. However when Ruby sits? Does she look like she's straining at all?

Sorry for all the questions, lol Just think its fascinating. I see quite a few BD and AM staffs, even some pitties with this re-occurring rears. Most don't like it and avoid it. Others don't see anything wrong other than it being what I mentioned above, thus insist that they can "improve" it.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I don't know enough about the genetics of it.

As a puppy buyer I don't know that it would turn me OFF a puppy, if one parent had a less than great rear as long as the other parent had a good rear and both parents were health tested and otherwise appropriate to their breed....

It was one of things I avoided when purchasing my boys, not the end of the world if they did. I just wonder how they would be when they fully matured and what problems would occur?

From my readings some say nothing while others swear by hip dysplasia.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Mary some very good points and I agree whole heartily with this. So in Corsi rears are not that much in "trouble" like most mastiffs? In GM's its a common sight. While most have "nice" fronts IMO the rears are mess. Most are cow hock or sickle, I see very few over-angulated dogs, in this breed. Its completely haphazard. Then I see pairings of just to me seemingly random dogs at will. Especially given their matches that could chance extremes on both ends. There are some breeders of EM that will breed a straight stifled dog to " correct" male in hopes to "correct" the fault. It sounds plausible but you know how nature can be.

Depends on who you talk to in regards to where the issues are, talk to some and heads are the issues, talk to others and rears are the issue and fronts are all over the place. That being said we are still coming out of the recovery of our breed so we aren't where most of the other breeds like mastiffs and danes are at the moment. Mother nature is a bitch and she will throw shit at you just so you learn that you have no control and you hope for the best based on what you see and study in the lines.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Depends on who you talk to in regards to where the issues are, talk to some and heads are the issues, talk to others and rears are the issue and fronts are all over the place. That being said we are still coming out of the recovery of our breed so we aren't where most of the other breeds like mastiffs and danes are at the moment. Mother nature is a bitch and she will throw shit at you just so you learn that you have no control and you hope for the best based on what you see and study in the lines.

Lol!!! Just like a woman...

I guess its just strange to me, a few years ago I thought this would be "logical" but now not so much. So I don't understand the reasoning behind doing it. Granted some did improve and had little if any distinction at all, others were just, damn.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

LOL! Nothing is easy with genetics or simple and when trying to improve sometimes the only way is thinking outside the box. All you can do is what you think is right for your program. Even when you think you found the right formula you just can't predict certain things. If I tried it the way I thought would work and got shit then I would likely see what I got doing it the opposite way I think.

 

[rodeo3113]

I see the same thing in Bullmastiffs, the fact that a "weak" back end is present doesn't bother me so much as some people being seemingly blind to the faults in the back end. I don't believe ANY dog is perfect, they all have one or some "weak point(s)". It seems to me that so much focus is being put on the front end of the BM that the back end is being neglected.

What bothers me is seeing a breeder breeding a weak back end to a weak back end. To me, that is like stating to the world that you don't see a problem with it. Straight stifles, high rumps and roach backs to one degree or another are all over the BM show world.