Cesar Millan: Opinion

[ruthcatrin]

Ive seen a dog react to another dog, attack it. The owner then tried to simply pull the dog back and the dog began attacking the owner still appearing to be in the "attack" state of mind the same fashion as the wolf.

I'm not debating what Cesar did to provoke the dog, just his reacting there after as this is seen in many "red zone" cases. The choker isn't useless in the hands of a well balanced trainer, even if it has been used incorrectly by someone else prior. It does make the work more difficult however.

I didn't say chokers in general were useless, I said that its likely useless now WITH THAT DOG. Read what I said, not what you want to read.

And I'm not arguing about dog aggressive dogs, Geisthexe already answered that part of the question. You aksed about what I would do in response to what this wolfdog did, and at that point, although he was focused on the other dog, he wasn't attacking, or even trying to attack, the other dog and CM kicked him at which the dog turned on him. That is a completely different problem than dog aggression. One which I already responded to. CM provoked the dog into turning on him, and then couldn't handle it. And if you want the simplest response to that its that I don't provoke a dog to that level of self defense!

 

[joshuagough]

Well said, and I don't use his methods either and I'm not a supporter nor hater per say (I don't care for the kick thing regardless of how hard), but would agree this is action is more of a attention getter for the dog more so than anything else.

I do believe he has a heart for dogs and that's why he started down this path just like many other trainers, that doesn't mean he's doing everything right nor everything wrong.

I normally stay out of the CM discussions online because both sides just piss me off. I will say this, some people blindly follow him and seem to think that they can do what he does and have success, as someone said they don't read the warning at the beginning of the show. Thats dangerous. Some people are insanely anti CM and are completely off base with how much they hate the man and some of the "evidence" they post is ridiculous and if they really find this guy cruel than I would tend to say they are the ones who are soft and need thicker skin. I mean the choking the wolf thing, thats bad, Ill agree and I wont try to defend that. The kicking though, are you kidding me? Better than 9/10 I high five people harder than he ever kicks a dog. He's getting their attention, plain and simple. Do I wish he did it differently, ya because you have less control over how hard you hit something with your foot as you do your hand and I think it would be just as easy in many cases to tap the dog on the back than tap it in the side with your foot. But MOST of the time he isn't booting the dog, he's tapping its side and getting its attention. If you don't believe it next time your walking down the street try to swing your foot behind your other leg and tell me how hard you can actually kick, you can't, its stupid. For every example a CM hater can post of how he "Damages and hurts dogs" a CM supporter can post 10 clips where he doesn't.

Is he perfect, of course not. I myself dont use any of his techniques, or if I do its not on purpose by any means. Its not cause I disagree with him, I just have found my own system that works for me. I agree with you that have said that the Alpha roll is dangerous and shouldn't be done, especially to a strange dog cause it could get you seriously hurt, the Fila owner for example thankfully knows that lol. I understand that some trainers hate this guy and feel that everything he does is wrong etc etc etc and thats totally their prerogative and I am sure they have techniques they have learned and worked well for them, but if they cant see ANYTHING he does as being right than I am sorry but I think they are ignorant, and I hate that word as it sounds so negative but I dont have another word for it. No one knows everything, no one I have ever ran into online has been around when he actually works, they only see whats on camera and until you are there to see the entire process start to finish I dont think you have any right to KNOW he is wrong just like any of his supporters dont have any right to KNOW he is 100% correct.

Preconceived notions taint the way you see his actions. Look at the video where one of his employees talks about how CM brings him and his dog into elicit response in some cases. Some of you have said it reprehensible and some of you have said you dont see a problem in it, but I guarantee that that video didnt SWAY anyones opinion. The people who hated him before think its a disgusting display and the people who support him find it completely normal. There was no one in the middle that has now picked a side based on that piece of "evidence" Its all perception.

I know that some of this is gonna get quoted and disagreed with and some of this will get supported and ill respond to all of it, its just how I feel about him. I think he has made mistakes and those mistakes get harped on over and over again. It seems as though no one ever presents a fair and balanced argument for or against this man, its always so one sided either for or against, thats why I normally stay out of it. I dont know why this man is so polarizing but when people seem to be so dead set on being on one side or the other that they stop being subjective it really annoys me.

---------- Post added at 11:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

I read everything you typed, I re-read it to see if I could hear you "said" anything but I couldn't.. my hearing isn't great

I didn't see anyone answer my question. If a dog is trying to.. or attacking you on a leash, like the wolf.. what do you do? Forget all the "I don't provoke a dog", this is just hypothetical..

You said this "And I highly suspect that if he'd simply started moving again, using a GENTLE tug on the leash and collar, he could have gotten the wolfdog moving again.".. so if a dog is attacking you, you'd gently tug on the leash and collar and move forward?

I didn't say chokers in general were useless, I said that its likely useless now WITH THAT DOG. Read what I said, not what you want to read.

And I'm not arguing about dog aggressive dogs, Geisthexe already answered that part of the question. You aksed about what I would do in response to what this wolfdog did, and at that point, although he was focused on the other dog, he wasn't attacking, or even trying to attack, the other dog and CM kicked him at which the dog turned on him. That is a completely different problem than dog aggression. One which I already responded to. CM provoked the dog into turning on him, and then couldn't handle it. And if you want the simplest response to that its that I don't provoke a dog to that level of self defense!

 

[joshuagough]

above @ Ruth

 

[Cody]

He does not Alpha roll the Boerboel. I have seen the episode a few times.
Also the dog does not return to Ms. Labelle's. He goes to live with her "trainer/assistant"

 

[chuckorlando]

I also dont have a issue with some of what he does on your own dog. It's how he does it to strange dogs. To me, thats the big issue. I like to think you know your dog and what you can and cant get away with. I can get down like a ninja with kona. But had he tried that very same thing, Kona would eat his face.

Now someone earlier said they dont have a problem with bating the dogs with another dog. I seen the bait dog get bitten. Thats border line dog fighting. Or a way to train for dog fighting. Your allowing one dog to potintialy be hurt just to show how mean another dog is. That aint right any way you dice it. Now if the dog was held at bay like a TT test for a fila using humans, no problem. That dog could have left the bait dog needing stitches real fast.

And by soft, I dont mean you as a owner cant do alot of this. I mean if your dog lets that dude get in it's face and act all billy bad ass, your dog is soft. Or your dog is very very well trained and thus you would'nt need dude.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I didn't see anyone answer my question. If a dog is trying to.. or attacking you on a leash, like the wolf.. what do you do? Forget all the "I don't provoke a dog", this is just hypothetical..

How much simpler do I have to state it. I would not put myself in that position in the first place. This is a dog with known aggression towards dogs. I don't need to SEE it for myself to believe the owners, especially since last time I checked they were required to send him a video in the first place to prove the problem. Therefor step one is remove the other dog(s) from the situation, and work on the dog and the owners on basic trust and focus.

The fact that CM put himself in that situation in the first place shows either some some serious lack of understanding of dogs (something I happen to think is the case anyways no matter how good he sounds on paper), or the fact that his drive to make "good tv" over rides his basic sense (something I also think is the case).

And even if I hadn't been able to avoid the whole "walk the wolfdog by another dog to see how he reacts" situation in the first place the fact that CM was totally miss-using a choke to the point where the wolfdog felt he had to fight for his life EVEN BEFORE they got to the other dog, was a not insignifigant factor in the dog turning on CM when CM continued to abuse him. IF instead of kicking the dog that last time CM had just continued to move out he very very likely could have avoided the whole scene (which is where that other quote from me came from IF YOU'D READ WHAT WAS ACTUALLY TYPED INSTEAD OF INJECTING YOUR OWN BIAS), but instead it was more important to him that he get a reaction on camera and it resulted in some fairly basic proof that he doesn't have a clue.

This whole situation was totally avoidable and that is your real answer. YOU DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION.

IF I was in CM's situation, a TV star trainer, who's got the goal of good TV instead of actually treating the dog with basic respect, I'd sure as hell have backup behind camera for cases where the dog went out of control, and I'd sure as hell be carrying as strong a pepper-spray as was legally allowed in the state in question. And IF I was stupid enough to mistreat the dog to the point where he felt his life was in danger and had to struggle and attack me simply to survive, then I'd use the pepper-spray, and call in backup to help restrain the dog, none of which has the very very likely possibility of causing serious damage or death the way choking the dog to unconciousness does. There, you want hypothetical than you can have it.

 

[Kate Williams]

Here's my thoughts which might get me fried on here. To me training and rehabilitating are completely different. I worked in rescue and rehab is a bitch. Training a puppy is all about creating habits. while rehab is all about breaking them, then recreating them. I use pack psycology at home. I control everything entrance, exit, food, water, playtime, and snuggles. I use no touch, no talk, no eye contact. I claim space and dishes. I get all up in their grill just like he does. Where we differ is I don't have to physically react. Now my pup got a few shakes early on for aggression. Grab by the scruff and let him know but it was twice and we have never faced it again. I like what cesar does. I respect what cesar does. I think just like people there are different ways to achieve different things but if it weren't for cesar I would still be treating my dogs like humans and that would be a nightmare with Hank. So just our two cents pack psycology works for us.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I think just like people there are different ways to achieve different things but if it weren't for cesar I would still be treating my dogs like humans and that would be a nightmare with Hank. So just our two cents pack psycology works for us.

I don't think any of us said that we should be spoiling our dogs like human children. Actually I personally think the world would be a better place if alot of the spoiled human children were given the structure and firmness required to train and handle a large hard tempered dog.....and its not rehab if you're abusing the dog.....

 

[cwayaustx]

I don't think any of us said that we should be spoiling our dogs like human children. Actually I personally think the world would be a better place if alot of the spoiled human children were given the structure and firmness required to train and handle a large hard tempered dog.....and its not rehab if you're abusing the dog.....

Funny you mention that, I have been thinking how well the NILF thought process would work for my children....

 

[Kate Williams]

No I'm not encouraging the physical, whatever he does, just the psycology. I never hit my kids I wouldn't start with my dog. I just think that for me an aggressive dog would be a goner. I don't do it. Too many out there to let an aggressive one go on. So in some ways he's more humane than I am. I would put a dog that bites indescriminantly down period. I wouldn't hit or choke I would simply call the vet... Goodnight. I actually didn't read what anybody said I just responded to the ops question. I use to seriously believe my dogs were children I thought they understood everything. I assigned human emotions to all their actions and they ran my house. My example was definitly directed at myself.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Funny you mention that, I have been thinking how well the NILF thought process would work for my children....

It would do wonders for a few spoiled brats I know....

No I'm not encouraging the physical, whatever he does, just the psycology. I never hit my kids I wouldn't start with my dog. I just think that for me an aggressive dog would be a goner. I don't do it. Too many out there to let an aggressive one go on. So in some ways he's more humane than I am. I would put a dog that bites indescriminantly down period. I wouldn't hit or choke I would simply call the vet... Goodnight. I actually didn't read what anybody said I just responded to the ops question. I use to seriously believe my dogs were children I thought they understood everything. I assigned human emotions to all their actions and they ran my house. My example was definitly directed at myself.

Gotcha! I Have to admit that I'd prefer that dogs that the owner can't handle be given every chance through training, but I'm honest enough to know that first off trainers who can handle really aggressive dogs, especially large ones, aren't that common, and second that not every owner out there has the time/energy to manage the training required to rehab such a dog, and that 3rd not every rescue can manage them either. As long as you know your own limits, thats the important part!

 

[joshuagough]

I didn't ask if the situation was avoidable, I asked what you would do given what I laid out.. it was a "simple" question. Your reply was that you answered the question, so I went back to see what you may have said, that I may have over looked as your "answer". If what I quoted wasn't your answer, then there wasn't one.

If and when your able to respectfully lay out your thoughts and set aside emotion, your message will be far more effective and better received

That said you did answer the question in this latest post. If you don't have a back up when your training a dog in the given situation and you rely on pepper spray your a lot more brave than I am.

How much simpler do I have to state it. I would not put myself in that position in the first place. This is a dog with known aggression towards dogs. I don't need to SEE it for myself to believe the owners, especially since last time I checked they were required to send him a video in the first place to prove the problem. Therefor step one is remove the other dog(s) from the situation, and work on the dog and the owners on basic trust and focus.

The fact that CM put himself in that situation in the first place shows either some some serious lack of understanding of dogs (something I happen to think is the case anyways no matter how good he sounds on paper), or the fact that his drive to make "good tv" over rides his basic sense (something I also think is the case).

And even if I hadn't been able to avoid the whole "walk the wolfdog by another dog to see how he reacts" situation in the first place the fact that CM was totally miss-using a choke to the point where the wolfdog felt he had to fight for his life EVEN BEFORE they got to the other dog, was a not insignifigant factor in the dog turning on CM when CM continued to abuse him. IF instead of kicking the dog that last time CM had just continued to move out he very very likely could have avoided the whole scene (which is where that other quote from me came from IF YOU'D READ WHAT WAS ACTUALLY TYPED INSTEAD OF INJECTING YOUR OWN BIAS), but instead it was more important to him that he get a reaction on camera and it resulted in some fairly basic proof that he doesn't have a clue.

This whole situation was totally avoidable and that is your real answer. YOU DON'T PUT YOURSELF IN THAT SITUATION.

IF I was in CM's situation, a TV star trainer, who's got the goal of good TV instead of actually treating the dog with basic respect, I'd sure as hell have backup behind camera for cases where the dog went out of control, and I'd sure as hell be carrying as strong a pepper-spray as was legally allowed in the state in question. And IF I was stupid enough to mistreat the dog to the point where he felt his life was in danger and had to struggle and attack me simply to survive, then I'd use the pepper-spray, and call in backup to help restrain the dog, none of which has the very very likely possibility of causing serious damage or death the way choking the dog to unconciousness does. There, you want hypothetical than you can have it.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------

Well from what I remembered I thought he did roll this dog or pin it, had a few others say they remembered the same. I can't find the compete episode, so I can't rewatch it.

None the less I'm sure he's worked with thousands of dogs and they all aren't turned over to a trainer, so one would think there would be many folks saying CM trained my dog now it's back to the same way it was prior to the training.

Are there a good number of these reports out there? There may be..?

He does not Alpha roll the Boerboel. I have seen the episode a few times.
Also the dog does not return to Ms. Labelle's. He goes to live with her "trainer/assistant"

 

[joshuagough]

above

 

[DMikeM]

@joshuagough, I would have gotten bit because I am not going to choke out a dog that I pissed off by sticking my foot in his gut. I would have pulled the leash back until I could get my hands on some fur and hold him down while telling him no and trying to calm him whil my helpers got a muzzle on his face. You are creating a scenario that can't exist for most of us here as we would not put ourselves in this position. If someone told me they had a DA husky/wolf they wanted me to work with I would have a muzzle to start with until I gained the dogs trust once that was done then I would be able to work with the dog. I have worked with agressive dogs before and just plain know better than to piss one off just to elicit a reaction from them.

 

[ruthcatrin]

That said you did answer the question in this latest post. If you don't have a back up when your training a dog in the given situation and you rely on pepper spray your a lot more brave than I am.

Please tell me where I said I DON'T work with backup and pepper spray on the occasion I deal with a know aggressive dog??

How about you stop reading with your bias turned on. I DID answer your question. Repeatedly. And it was in the over and over and over examples of how to avoid it. I 'got emotional' cause dealing with people who don't understand simple basic words pisses me off. The plain and simple FACT is that I'm not so stupid as to put myself in that situation in the first place. THAT is real life. If what you wanted was a truely fictional hypothetical 'you're the jackass tv star who put yourself in this situation' type of theory then you need to say so instead of insisting I'm avoiding the question you never asked.

 

[ruthcatrin]

None the less I'm sure he's worked with thousands of dogs and they all aren't turned over to a trainer, so one would think there would be many folks saying CM trained my dog now it's back to the same way it was prior to the training.

Are there a good number of these reports out there? There may be..?

You're totally missing Cody's point. Please provide us with an example of a mastiff and/or guardian type breed where CM 'trained' the dog using techniques such as or including including his version of the alpha roll where the dog appears to be living happily ever after for the original owner. The boerboel doesn't count as apparently its not all 'happily ever after' for the owner featured in the episode, regardless of the varios recolections of the episode.

 

[DMikeM]

You're totally missing Cody's point. Please provide us with an example of a mastiff and/or guardian type breed where CM 'trained' the dog using techniques such as or including including his version of the alpha roll where the dog appears to be living happily ever after for the original owner. The boerboel doesn't count as apparently its not all 'happily ever after' for the owner featured in the episode, regardless of the varios recolections of the episode.

The BB was released to the trainer who has been working with him constantly and still is not totally in a normal BB temperament. IF CM was so good why is this dog still a problem and why couldn't Patty keep the dog. I know of a similar dog right now that has been going through the same issues and is being rehabbed by a trainer that uses E-Collars. Not sure if I agree but the results are there, this is Dozer considered to be a HA/DA dog with fear agression after 2 weeks of rehab.
http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151201107990493

 

[Geisthexe]

I would like to post up a video of Cesar for the simple fact that this training method on this Rottie is irresponsible for a trainer to do. This dog nor the child learned anything from what he claims.
Cesar Millan Helps Family with Rottweiler
[video=youtube_share;WYA7f13k4OU]http://youtu.be/WYA7f13k4OU[/video]

I guarantee that dog is still the head animal in the home. That dog is still pulling that child

Now by no means am I a CM or am I jealous of him but I want to point out something
If he would have taken that dog and child and trained the "FOCUS" so the dog UNDERSTANDS to be with that child, to be able to LISTEN to the child, to want to FOLLOW the child.
This child would NOT have to pretend to be Cat Woman, to have to run with the dog to get the energy out, TO HAVE TO BE DRAGGED AROUND.
I just want to make this understanding that key in training is WANTING THE DOG TO WANT TO DESIRE YOU!! not the world around you.

I know I am off the subject you all are now speaking about but it irritates me when trainers from all over that do not understand the key eliminate in training. This also goes to all the pet store trainers, abc trainer and passive dog trainers.
Sorry for chiming in but just wanted to make a point and hell see if you agree or disagree ...

Oh and I bet if CM would have alpha rolled that Rottie he would have had a fight!

---------- Post added at 04:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 PM ----------

The BB was released to the trainer who has been working with him constantly and still is not totally in a normal BB temperament. IF CM was so good why is this dog still a problem and why couldn't Patty keep the dog. I know of a similar dog right now that has been going through the same issues and is being rehabbed by a trainer that uses E-Collars. Not sure if I agree but the results are there, this is Dozer considered to be a HA/DA dog with fear agression after 2 weeks of rehab.
http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151201107990493

If you watch that BB when she tells him to sit he does not sit where she stated but went straight in front of her so he was between the camera man and her. Also if you watch her she is not giving a nice praise for all the times she moved the dog. If brought into her with a positive reaction to what she is asking him to do on the Shock collar.
I am not happy with the FACT that gal is using a Shock collar on the dog for the fact you do not need that. I am not a fan of Sit means Sit either and there techniques but some use them so not meanness to be said.
If the dog was given to me or a few other trainers I know out there they would not use it either. We would be focusing on the problems but working some key eliminates into the program before that dog ever was out in public again. Also if the dog is so HA why is that child in there with him, that is a small space and that child could be attack for the simple fact of the shock collar b/c he could redirect onto the child.
In any training you need a reward and there are 5 of them.
Correction
Vocal
Touch
Food
Toy
All to make a better problem become a reward. This is one thing that CM and most other types of training are missing in there training program.
JMO

 

[Geisthexe]

The BB was released to the trainer who has been working with him constantly and still is not totally in a normal BB temperament. IF CM was so good why is this dog still a problem and why couldn't Patty keep the dog. I know of a similar dog right now that has been going through the same issues and is being rehabbed by a trainer that uses E-Collars. Not sure if I agree but the results are there, this is Dozer considered to be a HA/DA dog with fear agression after 2 weeks of rehab.
http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=10151201107990493

If you watch that BB when she tells him to sit he does not sit where she stated but went straight in front of her so he was between the camera man and her. Also if you watch her she is not giving a nice praise for all the times she moved the dog. If brought into her with a positive reaction to what she is asking him to do on the Shock collar.
I am not happy with the FACT that gal is using a Shock collar on the dog for the fact you do not need that. I am not a fan of Sit means Sit either and there techniques but some use them so not meanness to be said.
If the dog was given to me or a few other trainers I know out there they would not use it either. We would be focusing on the problems but working some key eliminates into the program before that dog ever was out in public again. Also if the dog is so HA why is that child in there with him, that is a small space and that child could be attack for the simple fact of the shock collar b/c he could redirect onto the child.
In any training you need a reward and there are 5 of them.
Correction
Vocal
Touch
Food
Toy
All to make a better problem become a reward. This is one thing that CM and most other types of training are missing in there training program.
JMO

 

[DMikeM]

Well I don't think that Rottie was a problem dog at all. He just never had any formal training. I actually thought what a great dog for a kid like that. Any trainer could have helped them and not have some Tard like CM making a big deal out of every little move that dog made. And this leaning means ownership and dominance crap? OH PLease! Jade leans on me becuse she gets comfort from being close to me. I suppose she walks with me because she owns me is the next chunk of BS CM wants to throw at the fan?

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

If you watch that BB when she tells him to sit he does not sit where she stated but went straight in front of her so he was between the camera man and her. Also if you watch her she is not giving a nice praise for all the times she moved the dog. If brought into her with a positive reaction to what she is asking him to do on the Shock collar.
I am not happy with the FACT that gal is using a Shock collar on the dog for the fact you do not need that. I am not a fan of Sit means Sit either and there techniques but some use them so not meanness to be said.
If the dog was given to me or a few other trainers I know out there they would not use it either. We would be focusing on the problems but working some key eliminates into the program before that dog ever was out in public again. Also if the dog is so HA why is that child in there with him, that is a small space and that child could be attack for the simple fact of the shock collar b/c he could redirect onto the child.
In any training you need a reward and there are 5 of them.
Correction
Vocal
Touch
Food
Toy
All to make a better problem become a reward. This is one thing that CM and most other types of training are missing in there training program.
JMO

Actually Deb the dog was not in training during that video he was just waiting on the trainer. My point is that this dog is being rehomed because it nipped a toddler before training. If you are interested in helping this BB more contact Sharon Bank of the American Boerboel Club. They might need help with others after Dozer and I don't know how long Colby is committed to rehab on Dozer.