Cinder Starting Training

[Winter's Cinder]

Cinder is 3 months old. She has her regular flat collar, and I recently purchased a pinch/prong collar for her to start training.
My hubby had the best of intentions last night when he was at the store and purchased a 4 mm heavy duty prong training collar. Today as I adjusted it and got it to size for cinder, it was still quite heavy for her young neck. She HATED it. So i went to the local pet store and purchased a smaller 2.5 mm one for her. It's much lighter, and it fits perfect for now, so I may have to get some additional links for it in the near future.
Anyway, I have been intensely watching the YouTube videos of the solid k9 training channel posted in another thread recently. I like this guy and his approach to training. He has great info and really explains what he's doing.
Cinder is 3 months old and its time to really get into training with her before she becomes a 100+ lb uncontrollable beast! She has come around quickly in the 6 weeks that we've had her, and is doing great with potty training. She hasn't shown any signs of aggression. She also seems to be a quick learner. Right now we are looking to just get some basic commands in place for her (i.e. place, come, leash). She does well when called inside the house, but has some focus issues when outside in the backyard. She doesn't pull too much on the leash at this point, and she is MUCH better than she was when I first introduced her to it about 3 weeks ago. We want to be able to take her with us on outings to the park and such when it warms up (January in iowa is not park weather!! LOL)
My biggest issue with her to date is she is constantly under my feet around the house, mostly when I'm in the kitchen. I know she just wants to be where I am, and she is a total lover and seems to really just want to be touching me in some way. But when trying to fix dinner or do dishes, a solid 3 month mastiff pup has almost taken me to the ground when my foot hits and she doesnt move!!
I understand she is just a pup and I need to teach her rules and training, so we are gonna really work on it.
I guess some of my questions are (after such a long winded post) what kind of a time frame should I expect some of these basic commands take to learn? (I know rome wasnt built in a day! ;-) )How much time should I work with her every day? Should I use treats or praise as rewards?
I will keep everyone posted on how it's going!!

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[Hector]

You are going to review basic commands on a daily basis no matter what age the dog is. For a puppy on a prong, I would use kibble/treats. Kibble would be best when doing basic commands. Get her used to working for food. Keep the sessions short. You can phase out food later in life or on commands that are easy, but if you want to work on focus - be generous with your rewards. I suggest you check out Stonnie Dennis on youtube. He has 2 sets of puppy training videos and he recently made some new ones. Take a look at the new ones with the energetic lab puppy. He shows you how to train the leash. I've used this method multiple times on different dogs and it is very useful and if you train with consistency and repetition, the dog responds with very light pressure. I can assure you the average dog pulls harder on their collar than the pressure I use to redirect/guide them on a daily basis. You should start introducing mat/place work to keep the dog out of your space or use a crate and work on impulse control with the door open. I know the dog is young, but aim for those goals. [video=youtube;THS6GAldGxg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THS6GAldGxg[/video]

 

[tmricciuto]

With a mastiff puppy you want to be very careful about overfeeding so I suggest you use a portion of the daily kibble for the 'treat' when training. That's what I did to ensure I wasn't overfeeding which can cause them to grow to big to fast and affect joints. If you are having trouble with her under your feet I would suggest you crate her during those times so she knows being in the crate when you are home is alright and/or work on 'place' during those times. I often will just crate my girls in the beginning, but now they know 'Go' with a finger point and know the exact distance they have to go to be ok. It was a lot of just moving them with my body because we don't allow them in the kitchen when we are cooking or eating.

 

[Hiraeth]

I have a few questions and comments.

The first being this - why are you using a prong collar on your puppy? Prong collars are not (in my opinion) training tools for things like "sit" and "stay". They should be used on dogs who pull too hard on walks by someone who knows how to use one appropriately. Not on a three month old puppy who has not been given a lot of guidance. You say you're watching Jeff Gellman videos, which is fine, but please realize that Jeff Gellman putting a prong on an aggressive adult Shepherd that has attacked other dogs in the past is *very* different from putting a prong on a 3 month old puppy.

I think you have your expectations set a bit too high. She's a baby. Of course she's going to lose focus when she's in the yard. Especially if she has no pointed training to direct her to do anything to the contrary. I've been training a "focus" command with Titan for three months. It works 95% of the time, but the other 5% of the time, he's just being a puppy and no amount of commanding that he pay attention to me is going to work.

To answer some of your questions:

1. You say your biggest issue is that she's under your feet when you're booking or doing chores - this is easy to solve. Crate her when you can't be directly interacting with her or when it's dangerous for her to be underfoot. Her crate should be a safe, fun place. Put her in there with a stuffed Kong or chew toy, cook and do dishes safely, then take her back out of the crate. Eventually, when she's learned the "place" command, you can put her on her bed or mat while you're doing these activities, but for now, teaching her to remain out of the kitchen by crating her is your best bet. By allowing her to lay at your feet in the kitchen, you're reinforcing the idea that she's allowed in there when you're cooking (which I think is a bad idea).

2. You asked about time frame, and that really depends on you and what you put into it. I introduce a new command to Titan every week. I do 4-5 5 minute training sessions a day, so as not to overwhelm his puppy brain. In each training session, I work on three commands at a time - one old and solid command, one moderately new command he doesn't have 100% down yet, and one brand new command for the week. I start by working on the old command and rewarding for it a few times to get the idea "yes, we're training now" into his head, then I work on the moderate command, then I start luring the brand new command. If at any time he gets overwhelmed, confused, or stressed, I ask for the command he 100% knows and throw a praise party when he does it. Rinse and repeat. Multiple times a day.

3. Of course you should use treats as rewards and lures. You don't go to work and get told to do things and not get paid. You shouldn't expect your dog to do things "because you said so". I reward Titan every time he does something I ask, even if it's "sit", which he has known since his breeder taught him the command at 7 weeks old.

To each their own. I train in a flat collar, no harness, no halti, no prong. I have a 6 month old (giant) puppy who sits, lays down, stays (even when I'm out of the room), backs up, drops things when asked, focuses when asked, will leave dropped food or treats on the floor until I tell him it's okay to eat them, knows "place", knows and brings multiple toys to me by name, heels on command on either my left or right with a loose leash and comes when called even when there are distractions. We're working on playing dead. I started training the minute he walked into my house at 9 weeks old.

All of that was achieved through hard work and reward-based training. He's never been corrected during a training session in his life, either with a raised voice or with a physical touch. He looks forward to training because I've made it positive and fun, which has allowed me to progress quickly with him. He's polite in public, he greets other people and dogs well, he looks to me for guidance and reassurance.

As a final comment - every moment with your dog is a training moment. Whether you're directly commanding your dog to do something like "sit", or whether you're allowing her to lay under your feet in the kitchen, you are teaching her what is expected of her and what is allowed. An important part of training is teaching a puppy how to learn and interact with a person. The process of being asked to do something, then doing it, then getting rewarded, is a process they need to learn. Once you teach a dog HOW to learn, you will find they pick up things much quicker. The longest it took me to train Titan how to do anything was "down", between 9-11 weeks old it is all we worked on. Now he picks up new commands easily and happily.

Don't get discouraged if Cinder doesn't pick up things right away. She hasn't learned how to learn yet. Three months is a late start, but a dog of any age can learn new things if training is made fun, if they are directed positively and if they are rewarded for doing as they are asked.

 

[DennasMom]

Different dogs learn at different rates... and then, once they KNOW the command... you have to make sure they know it MUST be done when you ask... which with mastiffs can be a whole different issue.

Calm, confident consistency in enforcing the rules and the puppy will get it one day. Sometimes it's like a light-bulb moment... one day you're wondering if you got the one idiot in the litter, and then the next moment they do EVERYTHING you ask for (and then they hit teenager years and you start all over. HA!)

Our first pup was a BIG dog (topped out at 199lbs), and we had a TINY kitchen, so one of the first rules of our house was NO DOGS IN KITCHEN. Period. We've held that rule for over 20 years now, and even guest dogs "get it" with just a few reminders. It keeps me from tripping with a pot of hot soup in my hand, and helps (a little) in reducing the number of hairs on the plate, too.

We used just a flat collar for training. We opted to go with a cotton slip collar for walks - because Denna would stop to sniff something, and end up backing out of the flat collar...
We also went with clicker/marker all-positive methods for teaching new commands. It was really fun!

I'm still more of a 'traditionalist' when it comes to negative consequences for bad behavior... but those are thankfully few and far between... and Denna is such a softie, that an "angry-mom" glance and a harsh word will send her running to the safety of her rug in a heartbeat.

I think the most important thing about training is to keep it FUN - for both you and the dog. That way, you do more of it and it becomes good bonding time as well as teaching time. I teach crazy things like "jump" (straight up, not ON anything), "over" (i.e. over a log), "under" (i.e. under my legs) and other stuff, just to keep the brain thinking and moving forward.

 

[Winter's Cinder]

Hector... thank you for your advice and I will add that guy to YouTube to check out!!
Tmricciuto, what would you suggest as rewards since she is getting a raw diet?
Dennasmom... I will keep all that in mind and will try a few things!!!

Thanks everyone for your advice!!!


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[Winter's Cinder]

Ok, Hiraeth, I didn't forget about you!!! LOL!!
I got the prong collar to help with leash training, and was just trying to adjust the huge one my hubby got this morning.. its just too heavy duty for her right now, and I went and got a smaller one later this morning. I really haven't implemented using it yet. I understand what you are saying about the videos, and I have been watching his tutorials on how to properly put it on and use it... I dont want to hurt cinder or make her afraid of it...
I may have worded my post wrong, but I really don't have high expectations at this point in her life. I know she's a puppy, and she is like any human kid in my house... "Ok mommy, I'm going to put my dish in t...SQUIRREL!!!" LOL!! I get it will take time and effort... I dont expect her to get it all at once... or be perfect at it.
I will crate her when she decides mom's feet is where she needs to be... my kids aren't allowed in the kitchen unless we are doing something together... and even then it's usually on a 1-on-1 basis. For Cinder it really depends if anyone else is home. If she's the only one with me, she wants to know what I'm doing and shes gonna get as close as she can to check it out.
I can put in as much time as needed really, and I will give your process a shot... we will start with just one and work from there...
As I asked another member, since she is raw fed, what would you suggest as a reward?
I really didn't mean for my post to come off as I bought a prong collar today and I'm gonna put in 8 hrs a day for the next week and expect her to be perfect by this time in 7 days. LOL... I just really wanted some advice and a little assurance I'm at least going in the right direction. I realize now I may be a little preemptive on my buying a prong collar. I have been working with her on at least liking the leash. We go out for potty breaks and she would rather sit there with the leash as taunt as she can get it... if I give her a little she just makes it taunt again and sits... she doesn't want to move much. If I drop the leash she is better and usually will go to the bathroom. But until the fence is built (in a few months when it warms up here) she needs the leash. She doesn't pull aggressively or alligator roll (anymore) but she doesn't like it much.
I appreciate all the advice, and again... I look forward to posting progress!!

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[Hiraeth]

Okay, using the prong for leash training is at least the proper use for it (in my opinion), but probably not necessary unless she pulls like a beast now. The way I worked with Titan was just on a flat collar and luring him into a heel with training treats. I'd keep them in my pocket and every time he got too far in front of me, I'd ask for a focus to get his attention and then show him the treat and lure him back into position. When he was in position, he'd get the treat as I said "heel". Then he'd inevitably charge back out in front and we'd start over again. Now he stays at my side because he got the idea that that's the position he needs to be in to get treats. I randomly treat when he's at my side to reinforce the heel.

Also, if you leash her and walk on grass somewhere while using treats, she'll probably quickly forget she likes to chew on the leash and just follow you around because you're providing food!

I probably read my bias into your post because it would have been about the fifth one I've read this week where someone is tossing a prong on their puppy and using it to teach "sit". So that's my fault for jumping to that conclusion.

I think she'll pick things up quickly if she's at all food motivated. Before I had done much dog training, I read something that made my mental light bulb go off, so I'll share it with you. Before you even try a command, make sure you can reliably lure the command with food. So for instance, with a sit, present the treat, raise it above her head, then as soon as her butt hits the floor say "good" and treat. Don't even bother with commanding "sit" until you can get her to sit *every time* you lure. Then, when you can lure it successfully, say "sit" WHILE you're luring it. Then "good" as soon as her butt hits the floor and treat. Eventually you'll make the lure less obvious - instead of moving it above her head, just hold it in front of her while you ask for a "sit". Most likely, her butt will just hit the floor because she's done it fifty times already

Luring is so important - if you say "sit" repeatedly and she doesn't sit, you're poisoning the command by saying it and getting no response. Avoid poisoning a command by applying the command TO the action after you can lure the dog into the action. You can train *anything* you can figure out how to lure - focus, sit, down, up, back up, place, heel, leave it, off, come, etc... All 100% lure-able commands.

Tiny pieces of liver or whatever food she gets should be more than adequate as treats. If you do a ton of training in one day, cut back on her dinner slightly as she's getting calories through training treats! We don't want chubby puppies!

 

[NYDDB]

Just my 2 cents- she is very young for a prong collar. Yes, I use one for Mateo, but NOT because he pulls on walks---he doesn't. In fact, he's a bit of a plodder, walking slightly behind me, most of the time. The reason I use a prong is because of where I live (midtown Manhattan) which is densely populated, and full of tight spaces and many, many dogs with "issues." I use it for leverage purposes, mainly. (which is why it's fairly loose on his neck; not high and tight, which is what is usually recommended for dogs that pull.) Because Mateo is a giant breed, intact dog, he gets a lot of aggression thrown his way. And, although he has a fairly high tolerance for this, he can, after a point, want to react and put the dog in it's place, so to speak. I need to be able to control him, and the prong is helpful in this regard.(in addition to consistent training that builds a nice, trusting relationship between the two of you.)

Basic training is the most important thing, and if you have set a good, solid foundation with positive training principles, other training tools should be added on an "as needed basis," in my opinion. Every dog has their particular temperament, and their own natural and (breed specific) temperaments. She is so very young, so be patient, go slow, and be consistent.

As far as a treat reward, I use either dried liver, or "Wellness Pure Rewards, Beef Jerky" training treats (for a picky dog, he loves these.)

 

[Winter's Cinder]

Hiraeth, I'm laughing at the section you wrote about your bias... its ok... ive seen a lot of your posts and you have a lot of great advice and i respect what you have to say...
im new here and with mastiffs... I'm not a total noob to dogs though... admittedly it's been at least a decade since I've had one of my own, and I never properly trained any dog I've ever owned... (they weren't out of control, but not much more than house only dogs..)
I understood what you were trying to say and your questions were totally legit... Cinder is VERY food motivated so I think with some time she will pick up her training.

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[Winter's Cinder]

Nyddb, I think she's a bit young for one too and thats why I opted to go get a much smaller one... after watching some YouTube this afternoon I dont want to make her scared of it but even though she is still just a pup... I think the prong will help her a bit more with her resistance to her leash... right now she just wants to get away from it... shes not being aggressive in her pulling right now, and I don't want her to get that way...
Shes pretty mellow, and I can tell she may have a bit of a stubborn streak... lol... with her reg collar she just gets the leash taunt and then sits and looks at me as if she's saying "I had to go potty, but you put this on me, so I'm just gonna sit here until you drop it" and as soon as I let it go, she does go.. but even at her young age, she knows how far 'just out of reach' is... and to be totally honest... I'm willing to brave the cold for potty training sakes... im not willing, however, to play 'let's see how long I can make mom run in circles because I don't want her to have the end of the leash' in 6 degree weather... in a foot of snow... lol... its happened a few times...

I love her, I really REALLY do... and we put off getting a dog for so long because we wanted to make sure we had the time to train her properly so she didn't have to stay in her kennel all the time while we are gone... I think that's awful and unfair to a dog... and I feel she will be a very good dog and she does listen, but she is still a very young pup. I think the prong collar will help with her leash training.. and when she has gotten some training time under her belt, it will be more of the leverage as you discussed when we do take her out and about...

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[Winter's Cinder]

She was half asleep and snoring in my ear... she loves me too!!

(This picture is proof I may spoil her just a little)

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[Boxergirl]

Add me to the too young for a prong camp. I feel strongly that every other positive motivational method should be used first before going to a prong. I can't imagine a situation where a prong would be needed for a puppy this young. I think prongs are very good for telling a dog what you don't want it to do, but I prefer to teach my dog what I *do* want it to do. There are many resources to address the leash issue you are having that don't require the use of a prong collar, or any other training tool. You might find clicker/marker training fun. Most dogs really enjoy it. Also, the size of the prongs determine the strength of the correction. The smaller the link, the firmer the correction. Many people don't know that.

 

[Boxergirl]

Let me clarify what I mean by training tool. I mean head harness (which I'm not a fan of), no pull harness, etc. I don't mean a regular collar and leash as those are generally required by law. You can even work with your pup without a collar in the house.

 

[tmricciuto]

I didn't put Sage on a prong until she was 9 months old because we weren't "communicating" on all the other ones I tried. The prong was the last option for us and it works. Is she fantastic on it...yes unless I am trying to jog with her...we need to work on that one still.

As far as treats go, I agree that you could give her part of her organs as dried treats. Maybe some dried liver.

 

[JamieHalverson]

I'll add my 2 cents; 3 mos is too young for a prong collar. I trained my puppy on a harness and a limited slip martingale or flat buckle collar. I let her pull on a harness. I trained a nice, loose leash walk right next to me with the collar. Started out with only a few steps when I had her attention and lots of treats. I also randomly popped a treat in her mouth when she was walking next to me of her own volition and just made walking near me really, really great. I just posted in another thread about the fact that she is now almost 10 months old, she weighs approx 75 pounds and she NEVER pulls on a leash. She walks immediately next to me unless I release her to sniff or potty or whatever, and I only have to apply a little light pressure if she moves ahead a bit or gets distracted. She has never been on a prong collar for one minute. By the time your puppy gets to be physically too big for you to control, the hope is it's well trained and socialized enough that you won't need to physically control it.

 

[JamieHalverson]

Oh, and I second the Stonnie Dennis recommendation. His puppy training videos were suggested to me on this forum and, frankly, they were the foundation I used to build my relationship with my puppy. She's sweet, smart, a little stubborn, but I reinforced the things that were MOST important to me using treats and repetition and now have a really, really nice and nicely behaved big puppy.

 

[Hector]

Winter's Cinder, would you please post some videos of her training progress when you get a chance? I mean who doesn't like seeing mastiffs in training!?

 

[season]

I used a prong on Solo the day I brought him home at 3 months. It's not to young....the prong doesn't hurt the dog any more than any other collar. Owners hurt the dog. I would suggest getting a good one though. Herm Sprenger. Everyone has an opinion and there are plenty that the prong is some torture device. It's not. But if you let people who don't like them scare you then they will do all they can to convince you it is a torture device and it hurts the dog etc. Like I said, I used a prong on Solo the second I brought him in the house. He is a great dog. Well trained and well behaved. Why? Because I worked with him. Just remember...the worst, most harmful tool out there is not a collar. It's a human that doesn't know what they are doing.Love and affection do more to hurt dogs than any collar out there. I wish you luck and if you ever need help let me know or PM me. I'd be happy to help.[video=youtube;h3xxSBxVikc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3xxSBxVikc[/video]

 

[season]

[video=youtube;_0c8rztq1vg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0c8rztq1vg[/video]