Cross over trainers

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Third vid...[video=youtube;nhtYrQvJpIk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhtYrQvJpIk[/video]

 

[marke]

They are known for having great temperaments, that's why I got them. Mine are fairly submissive but that is also how I've raised them. I don't allow shenanigans.

from my experience a submissive dog and a great temperament really have nothing to do with each other ........ I believe there is a genetic component to how submissive a dog is predisposed to be , and your handling of them should be different ..........

If you tried to let yourself in my neighbor's yard? You'd find out how SG a Mastiff can be . I witnessed his female Martha(one of his 4) rip someone off a motorcycle he was trying to steal. By the time we got to them his arm was mangled both bones broken and his intestines were hanging out of his belly thanks to one of the others.

good thing that didn't make the news ....... personally my dogs only need to alert me , that way I make the decision on the liability that will be incurred ....... I've seen a few defensive English mastiffs , I seen one protection trained using defense , a defensive dog imo is a liability , a dog trained to bite based on it's defensive nature is a double liability ...... I've never owned an em , but the distrusting defensive nature has appeared to me not to be the norm ........

I've personally owned, trained, and raised over 100 dogs. Including Blue Heelers that were all working dogs, we also bred them. GSD's, I've adopted numerous retired police dogs, ................................................I've had hard dogs, easy dogs, and downright nasty son-of-a-bitch dogs. ................................................. This whole concept of "heel" and walking on a loose leash is only something I've learned about in the past few years. Hank my fawn EM is the first dog that I used a leash on from the day we brought him home at 8 weeks. He will be 3 on 11/11/15. I didn't know what the fuck P+ or R+ or negative reinforcement was. That's not how I learned. I learned through watching and doing what my step-dad did. I didn't know that a correction is referred to as an aversive. I just know that my grandfather said, "This is how you teach a dog to ____." There was never a point in my life when I didn't own a dog. I've never had or found a dog I couldn't make behave in an acceptable manner. I've been bitten more times than I can count. I've been literally attacked on a few occasions when I was younger and didn't know any better. This whole "science based dog training" idea is pretty much brand new to me. Here lately I've just been working on trying to get "up to speed" or "up to date" with what people are using in the industry. Mostly because I want to get into the industry. People can read books and go through case studies all they want. I've lived the shit. Many of the methods I've learned and used in the past I'm learning more and more aren't necessarily the best way to do things or even accepted as ethical by today's standards. Glasgow talks about cognitive dissonance. After I looked it up in the dictionary, I realized it was a brand new idea to me . It also is applicable to the way I think about dog training now. I've been learning so many new things in such a short time I often have conflicting thoughts on what dog training actually is all about now lol. I have an impulse to go out and buy a clicker for god's sake lol.1 year ago if you told me I had to click something the exact moment my dog's ass touched the floor I'd have called you a moron. I've been going over material on how to "shape behaviors" using a clicker. Truly fascinating stuff. I'm going to make an attempt to attend Clicker Expo in Reno, NV in Jan. All my spare time I've been spending learning everything I can. It's truly amazing how far things have come in the past 30 years as far as methodology goes. I'm like a sponge. Just soaking it up. Will I start using positive only methods? Prob not anytime soon. I'm to used to saying "nope" as a reaction to my dog breaking a sit/stay. But I also don't see anything wrong with that type of a correction. I bought a prong collar to learn how it works and to use on my own dogs because I want to form my own opinions of the tools available. Does that mean I'm going to allow my dog to walk past me while I turn around and jerk the hell out of the lead? NOPE. IMO that's straight uncalled for. Before I even put it on my dog I put it on me and had my wife jerk me around a little bit. It was pretty hot but that's a whole other topic =P Walls of text abound. Sorry for the ramble lol.

honestly I don't believe there is any new/different ways in which animals are trained today than there was 40yrs ago ......... I've had more of an interest in genetics than behavior , and our understanding of genetics has increased significantly , and we certainly don't breed healthier dog because of it ...............

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

On the breeding that's the truth. A lot of the breeds are for looks. The have traits bred into them that are non-functional and actually detrimental to their health(short snouts). We don't work them with their intended purpose. That's a lot of the reason why there are so many misbehaving dogs today. They are bored looking for something to do and their restless spirit takes the shape of undesirable behaviors. /\/\/\/\ Oh it made the local news, believe me. It wasn't pretty and there's still litigation going on. You are absolutely right about them being a liability. We had a friendly neighbor come over to visit while I was helping them cut wood and the friendly neighbor got bit in the leg. Left a NASTY bruise. Their owner was out in the yard that time and immediately had them under command (thank god). That's why I make sure my pups do as I say.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Ah and as to how training methods have changed here is an interesting article. BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE  FOR 110 YEARS? | Dog Star Daily

 

[karennj]

This is one of the videos - Free shaping - [video=youtube;eAC-_Nf0XWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAC-_Nf0XWU[/video]

 

[karennj]

And this one on behavior modification - [video=youtube;_Ti47I_Evuc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ti47I_Evuc[/video]

 

[karennj]

I think the most important thing to remember is that most of us all used the old style of training and found the new methods work just as well if not better. I did it Ceasars way up until last year. I actually have a prong and stim collar for Bear! When I got him I was trying all my old tricks and it just was not working. I started looking for a better way and stumbled upon the newer training methods and got myself hooked up with a "positive" trainer. The change in my dog was incredible and I have not looked back. It makes me sad to think that I actually "alpha" pinned dogs down. Did it stop the immediate behavior, absolutely....did the dog try the behavior again, yup.....did the dog ever fully trust me, nope. It just makes sense when you think about it. Harsh corrections may stop a undesirable behavior but you have not changed the core issue in the dog. Yes, it may not lunge at the other dog walking past for fear of the correction but the dog still wants to lunge, they are just restraining themselves. "Positive" training instead will work on the mindset of the dog. Why is the dog lunging and how can we change the way he feels about the other dog to keep the behavior from happening? In my eyes one form deals with the symptom where the other deals with the actual disease. I think a lot of people believe "positive" training is just shoving treats in the dogs mouth while begging or bribing them. Sometimes it can look like that and some trainers do that incorrectly. But that is not at all what it is about. I think the only way we can better ourselves is to try different things. I tried all sots of methods with Bear and have found something that works for us. I am always open to learning more and if something works better I am ok with abandoning the old.

 

[Boxergirl]

I think the most important thing to remember is that most of us all used the old style of training and found the new methods work just as well if not better. I did it Ceasars way up until last year. I actually have a prong and stim collar for Bear! When I got him I was trying all my old tricks and it just was not working. I started looking for a better way and stumbled upon the newer training methods and got myself hooked up with a "positive" trainer. The change in my dog was incredible and I have not looked back. It makes me sad to think that I actually "alpha" pinned dogs down. Did it stop the immediate behavior, absolutely....did the dog try the behavior again, yup.....did the dog ever fully trust me, nope. It just makes sense when you think about it. Harsh corrections may stop a undesirable behavior but you have not changed the core issue in the dog. Yes, it may not lunge at the other dog walking past for fear of the correction but the dog still wants to lunge, they are just restraining themselves. "Positive" training instead will work on the mindset of the dog. Why is the dog lunging and how can we change the way he feels about the other dog to keep the behavior from happening? In my eyes one form deals with the symptom where the other deals with the actual disease. I think a lot of people believe "positive" training is just shoving treats in the dogs mouth while begging or bribing them. Sometimes it can look like that and some trainers do that incorrectly. But that is not at all what it is about. I think the only way we can better ourselves is to try different things. I tried all sots of methods with Bear and have found something that works for us. I am always open to learning more and if something works better I am ok with abandoning the old.

Very, very well said.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Dig the analogy Karennj!

 

[marke]

reward based training has to be the first and oldest training method ever used on dogs ......... the idea that you can raise a dog without negative consequences , dominance , or punishment is no more possible than it is to raise a normal child without negative consequences , I don't think anybody with a lick of sense would advocate raising a child without discipline ............ I just had a leash biting pup , there is no negative consequence that could possibly be required for that behavior , honestly there was no reward or punishment involved , although when I think about it , probably both were involved , I just would take her out leashed to another dog , she figured it out real quick , and permanently ..... occasionally now she'll grab the loop in the leash and carry it , but she never fights it .............. I believe some behaviors requires a negative consequence , I have to think some psychologist/behaviorist out there has to have proven negative consequences to be stronger motivators than positive reinforcements ....... which is why I believe you couldn't ruin a dog with glascowdogtrainers method , I just think the dogs would be less reliable ......

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I dunno. I've been researching the interwebs hard and I'm warming up to the idea tbh lol. In fact from what I've seen, done properly and with correct timing, it may even produce more reliable pups. I'm still of the mindset that yes some behaviors need to be corrected. Correction in more and more cases (in my mind) being defined as, withholding praise/reward or an "instructive reprimand". When the dog breaks a sit/stay instead of saying no, simply withholding praise/reward and repeating sit(instructive reprimand). I was trying to work my pups together last night. Roxy was in place while I was working obedience and duration with Hank. I requested "Hank come". When they both decided to come I said nope, out of habit to Roxy, they both thought it was for them and I ruined "come" for about 5 mins lol... Working two dogs is interesting. I normally work them seperate but even just having them together makes things a whole different ball game. Btw Roxy is much better with her obedience than Hank is and she is less than a 3rd his age. Partly due to Hank lacking some structure when he was younger(off task/free more often than not), partly do to a shift in my training methods IMO.

 

[marke]

I have a pup just took up the habit of chewing on the dog door flap , my thought is to spray it with bitter apple or cayenne pepper ......... what's a practical positive method to stop her ?????

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Teach her leave it. If she doesn't already know it, my fav way to teach it is with food. Something like "it's your choice". Once the concept of leave it is down, you apply it to the doggie door flap. You say leave it, and reward/praise for even just looking away from it.

 

[marke]

Teach her leave it. If she doesn't already know it, my fav way to teach it is with food. Something like "it's your choice". Once the concept of leave it is down, you apply it to the doggie door flap. You say leave it, and reward/praise for even just looking away from it.

if i'm around to tell her to leave it , it's not a problem , she is perfectly obedient , and now she knows not to chew on it when i'm around . you've solved such a problem with this method ?

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Many and more friend. She shouldn't have access to it when you aren't around until you can proof the behavior. Simply giving a command and them following it for the time being is one thing. The real work comes when you are proofing the behavior. It takes around 30 days to create a habit. If you could absolutely keep her from chewing the doggie door for that amount of time, by using leave it, and "chew toy" giving her something to chew, and/or restricting access to the doggie door while unsupervised. You have a much less chewed on doggie door

 

[marke]

the purpose of the dog door is for when i'm not around ..... denying her access to it is not an option .......... she has plenty of stuff to chew on , and do . she's been using a dog door her entire life ........I do know a couple ways to stop her , it's not the first time I had this problem , just interested in an idea on how to stop her in a positive manner .............

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Agreed that's the purpose of the doggie door. It's a bit irrational to allow the behavior while your away though for the sake of doing it. Use what method you would like. This is obviously going to be a round and round conversation with many stipulations. I'm bowing out /bow Thanks for the scenario.

 

[marke]

actually what caused the behavior is the door has been open all summer , when I closed the door for the cold weather she got an idea , probably she doesn't want it there ............. if I could remove her access to it , well , she didn't have access to it for the last 5-6 months , that didn't seem to help ........ she didn't chew it previous to the summer ........ seems to me not seeing it is part of the cause , she doesn't chew the doors in the kennels because they've never not been there ........... the last dog chewed the dog doors was exactly the same scenario .........

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

My front door was also basically permanently open all summer. Living in the high desert and not owning an air conditioner is a pita lol. I have a slider that restricts access to the flaps of the doggie door. I usually don't let them have free in and out privileges. I make them do a threshold protocol to go out and then I allow them to come back in through the doggie door on their free will. The idea is that they don't go outside without permission unless they are given the "outside" command, or they sit and then break before going through the threshold. I never allow them outside privileges when I'm not home. Either they come with me or they are inside til i get back. If I'm going to be away longer than I can expect them to hold their bio then I will have my neighbor either come over and let them out or I will leave at them at the neighbors house.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Where the "F" is Glasgow a.k.a. John?He started this thing I was expecting more input from him. Maybe he hates us? lol Maybe we scared him off with all our dominance theory? lol Maybe he spends more time on other forums? DUDE! Comment on your thread! =0