How do you handle this?

[ruthcatrin]

Several months yes. And no, from your description of Franklin I'd be surprised if his problem is hormone related.

 

[alwcm4]

The types of cancer are important too. Yes, testicular cancer risk might be higher if you don't neuter, but osteocarcenoma risk is higher if you do and bone cancer is pretty much a death sentence, esticular cancer can be removed.

 

[thelady_v2010]

I'm not sure if I'm going to neuter Kryten anymore or not. I don't know if I want to be responsible for an intact male for the rest of his life but it would mean yet another surgery. I'll have to decide after he is all healed up. The one thing I won't do is mess with his body chemistry when his health isn't 100%.

They have this new thing I read about, chemical neutering, where they inject a chemical into their testicles, no going under. I am thinking of it for Menace, even though we are over a year away at the least.

 

[Hank DDB]

I do what I want, not what others want me to do or expect me to do. I will not desex a dog unless it is nesecary for the dogs health. I would tell that person " it's great that you so strongly believe that but I'm telling you that in my opinion you are wrong and you need to do a lot more research to find out the truth". Yes I've said this to people! Some get majorly pissed off while other stop dead in their tracks and rethink what they are saying.

 

[DennasMom]

I love that anyone would suggest neutering to 'cure' the leg-lifting... ah... not in my experience!

Our first dog was neutered at the pound at ~12 weeks old. He started marking the neighborhood and lifting his let right on schedule... around 8-10 months old or so. He would also 'air-hump' other dogs when he got excited (we just said he had bad aim). He had some favorite pillows at home, too...

Our DaneX was neutered at 6 months (before we knew better, and as required by his rescue/adoption contract). He also lifted his leg and had to stop and sniff EVERYTHING when out on walks. He marked the neighborhood as needed, too... He also liked to mount dogs at the dog park... but more to annoy them and get them to chase him... I had to watch out that he didn't decide to annoy the wrong dog, some would get more angry than annoyed.

So, I'm guessing from this thread that CM's assertion that intact dogs (males especially) get "sexually frustrated" if not allowed to mate... is totally false?
He used that excuse with a machismo bulldog owner on one of his shows...

 

[ruthcatrin]

So, I'm guessing from this thread that CM's assertion that intact dogs (males especially) get "sexually frustrated" if not allowed to mate... is totally false?
He used that excuse with a machismo bulldog owner on one of his shows...

Is that where that particular statement comes from? Shoulda guessed *rolles eyes*

And yes, its false....

 

[Smokeycat]

I
So, I'm guessing from this thread that CM's assertion that intact dogs (males especially) get "sexually frustrated" if not allowed to mate... is totally false?
He used that excuse with a machismo bulldog owner on one of his shows...

Now there's anthropomorphizing in action.

 

[angelbears]

The types of cancer are important too. Yes, testicular cancer risk might be higher if you don't neuter, but osteocarcenoma risk is higher if you do and bone cancer is pretty much a death sentence, esticular cancer can be removed.

It is all about managing risk. I agree 100%

 

[erwinmyers32]

I would prefer listening to those who actually experienced this or managed to overcome this rather from people who knows a little bit on this topic.

 

[Hector]

I love that anyone would suggest neutering to 'cure' the leg-lifting... ah... not in my experience!

Our first dog was neutered at the pound at ~12 weeks old. He started marking the neighborhood and lifting his let right on schedule... around 8-10 months old or so. He would also 'air-hump' other dogs when he got excited (we just said he had bad aim). He had some favorite pillows at home, too...

Our DaneX was neutered at 6 months (before we knew better, and as required by his rescue/adoption contract). He also lifted his leg and had to stop and sniff EVERYTHING when out on walks. He marked the neighborhood as needed, too...

I agree. Buddy was neutered when we got him from the shelter. He constantly marks everything in the yard, it's like his passion. On walks, he'll pull so damn hard to mark a bush or when a pole is in sight. When he gets overly aroused, he will hump another dog or even go after kids that are on the ground......disturbing, but it's a good thing this household is kid free.

 

[Catia]

Just want to as my .02 .......
This may sound awful, but...
here I go...

You all are referring to 'most people's opinion" & most people's experience with intact dogs.
'most people' are the general public.

Sorry, but most of the general public doesn't train their dogs, they are not on forums asking advice on training, & even the one's who have a shread of a clue about socializing don't even teach manners.
These are the same people who do not discipline their kids--& wonder why they have problems...

'Most people' aren't gonna ask the question-what are the effects of castration on a developing pups bones/heart/longevity.

The only thing 'most people' know about leaving a dog intact is that they usually have a bigger head & fuller coat & that they hump a LOT--that's as far as it goes.

Today, at a local dog park, I took Tessa & left, & I'm sure people are talking...
As I was quite the bitch!
a woman was allowing her unhealthy looking intact male hump every dog & he snarled & growled & was aggressive. It was obvious people were VERY uncomfortable, but no one would say or do anything. She was a friend of someone there, so I guess that means her dog can misbahave & dominate & hump the entire park.
I was there less than 5 minutes.
I asked the owner to get her dog off my girl, once, nicely.
She just blew me off, did not even acknowledge my 'request'.
She was gonna just let him 'finish'

^^^^This is the general public.^^^^

***********People seeking information at places like here are the EXCEPTION to the rule.**************

I got a look of horror from the other dog owners when I stood over & corrected her dog so that I could remove mine & not get humped or bitten in the process.
She tried to tell me to lighten up because that's what dogs do--
To which I replied,"No--really they do NOT- if you take the time to train them properly.

Fact is, she'll breed that unhealthy, reactive, mongrel of a dog with bad legs, she thinks he's great, & tons more unwanted pups will then be untrained, unfixed pups, breeding more of the same, & they'll wind up in shelters & being put down. I am powerless over it.

This woman has zero control over her pooch. Having to deal with that type of behavior in a public place is just disgusting, & 'most people' believe that's just what dogs do...It has never occurred to them to train them not to.

Let the public have their opinion.
For every person who doesn't do the research, let them spay/neuter-it saves lives of 10x in the end, just from avoiding 1 accidental mating. Spay & neuter campaigns have their place in this life.

For every person who tried to understand what you are explaining about why you do not neuter, they will explain so 1/2 assed to others, who then will misinterperate MOST of what you took the time to explain in careful detail.
None of them will do any research.

So basically, I'm saying--don't try to convert them.
The shelters are already over populated.
There aren't enough people to rescue what's there.
Don't try to convert the vet, he probably has his reasons. I'm sure he's seen countless unnecessary euthanasias & is just beaten down, because 'most people' aren't going to do what you do.

Worst case scenario?
Someone who has done zero research thinks you are irresponsible & a bad pet owner because you chose to leave your pooch intact throughout his growth.

My .02 comes from working with 'most people' daily...for YEARS...the general public is better off spaying/neutering.
They're just not responsible enough. Sad but true.

signed---your friendly civil servant...& her mongrel rescue pooch

 

[ruthcatrin]

Honestly its not that I have a problem with someone choosing to neuter early, I don't mind so much the push to neuter early. Its that I can't stand the lies that are used to push it.

And yes, they're lies.

Research is showing more and more that (for example) the ONLY cancer that has an increased risk by not neutering a dog is testicular, there's a HUGE list of other cancers that have an increased risk AFTER THE DOG IS NEUTERED. And as Alcwm pointed out, the actual risk of serious problems from testicular cancer is tiny, and thats ontop of a fairly small overall percentage of risk in the first place, and even then the risk is only signifigant at middle age.

Breast cancer in intact female dogs has no higher risk than it does for humans (approx 30%) AND its only that high if the bitch isn't spayed till after the age of about 2.5yrs. And only half those cases result in malignant cancers! The over-all risk for pyometra in intact females less than 10yrs old is 24%, and the risk below the age of 2.5yrs is positively tiny.

Both genders have increased risks of joint problems if spayed/neutered before mature.

Both genders, after spay/neuter, frequently STILL have all sorts of "temperment" problems that are constantly attributated to hormones, even when the dog has been neutered before those hormones hit.

And yet people are told the exact opposite in order to force them to spay/neuter on someone else's schedule. Heck, I've lost count of the number of spayed female owners spay their dog on schedule at 4-6 months, and then a year later are back in the vet because she's leaking urine when she sits, only to be told thats NORMAL for a bitch spayed so early! And not one of them remembers being told its a possible risk. And yet its so common it has its own name: Spay Incontinence!

Its the lies that get me. And yes, some people don't know better, but some of this data has been around for a WHILE, MANY vets SHOULD be aware of it and aren't.

 

[ruthcatrin]

And frankly the people like that lady at your dog park aren't swayed by the evidence against early/spay neuter. They're doing it because they think thats what dogs do, thats how dogs are, and that they can make money off their horribly tempered nasty dog. Even if all the lies about early/spay neuter were true you'd not change their mind. Its a totally different problem.

 

[Smokeycat]

Your right Catia. The problem I had with the woman that I started this thread about was that she was telling people (on a different forum) that were looking for answers on why there seemed to be a higher incidence of joint issues in 'pet' animals than in breeder animals that it was something that just happens and early neutering had no effect on it at all. These people were trying to figure out what they could do to minimize the chances of having another dog with that injury. The general dog owner who isn't responsible enough or willing to put in the extra work necessary to have a healthy, well behaved dog should neuter before the dog is able to breed. I admit I have used the excuse that I want Kryten to 'look' like a male EM when talking to people about why he isn't fixed, it was easier. I have also had people get mad at me because I refused to allow them to use Jiggers (neutered early) as a stud dog. What really got me was they would ask 3 questions typically in this order. 1) Is that a boy or girl? 2) Can I use him to breed with my girl? 3) What breed is he? I came to realize that I was different from most of the owners around me very quickly.

 

[DMikeM]

Ruth I am so glad you have taken the time ti research this subject. You are fast becoming our go to girl for the subject. I am a victim of a pushy vet and had my boys both neutered Duncan at 2.5 but Dozer was only 1.5 years and he has bad hips and arthritis in his neck and back and his penis never had a chance to fully exit his sheath and he has had pains from erections in the past. With my knowledge today I would love to travel the past and kick that vet in his testes!

 

[ruthcatrin]

Ruth I am so glad you have taken the time ti research this subject. You are fast becoming our go to girl for the subject. I am a victim of a pushy vet and had my boys both neutered Duncan at 2.5 but Dozer was only 1.5 years and he has bad hips and arthritis in his neck and back and his penis never had a chance to fully exit his sheath and he has had pains from erections in the past. With my knowledge today I would love to travel the past and kick that vet in his testes!

It started out as self defence ("what do you MEAN that removing the hormones before the dog is mature doesn't affect the dog, it affects humans!"), and then turned into a peeve....

I wouldn't mind one bit if early spay/neuter was pushed as plain and simple birth control and a way to avoid having to deal with a bitch in heat or a pissed off neighbor who's bitch just had an unplaned litter that look like your male. Or heck, if vastectomies and tubal ligations were easier to get as alternatives I'd be right there pushing them as hard or harder than the vets and shelter folks. Its the plain and simple outright mis-information and lies (sometimes blatent, sometimes by omission) that get me.

 

[Catia]

Well, honestly, if people were responsible enough with their pets, I'd opt for spay neuter after 2-3 yrs when all growth & filling out was basically done, & not just for dogs. If I had my choice, I would not have spayed Tessa until she was fully developed, & she's a mutt.

It's sad, because it's not just you, it's the pet owners around you as well, dogs will do crazy dangerous things to get to a bitch in heat.

It seems I am in the breeding boat right with you smokeycat--every 2 or 3 people I meet in passing want to breed Tessa, & she's MY female--it's like they think they'r offereing some great priveledge. And yes, the questions go just like you said.

I'm one of the few that has the full understanding of the endocrinology & how the HPA axis & hormones affects bone health(especially during development), cancer risk & cardiovascular health, just to name the main 3, but that's due to my own experience & health condition.
I know full well how hormones affects a human, unfortuneately, as I have to take my hormones in pill or liquid form via syringe, & I have to deal with all of those risks that come with it, because if I don't take mine, well, death results, so a bit more severe than a spay or neuter situation. But my point is, yes, the risks are real, human or dog.

I spent a lot of time researching about alternatives to the typical spay/neuter-looking to see if there are vets who will leave certain things in tact-for example a vascectomy for a pooch as opposed to full castration. This would allow for proper development & still provide birth control. There ARE a few out there, doing research, but it is just a few, & a few surgeries like that have been performed. There's a better understanding of male anatomy & hormones-it's much simpler than the female system.
And yes, I've dealt with spay incontinence with my last girl, though it didn't turn up til later in life, & only occurred when she was sleeping. Vet did offer hormone replacement as an option, but I did not go that route.

 

[Catia]

wanted to add, the spay/neuter campaign does have a LOT of misinformation-but it did not begin that way.
When it started, a full understanding wasn't there for how castration may affect a developing pooches health later down the line.
Also, keep in mind, while a more complete understanding now exists, people gravitate towards what is *easier*.

I'm not saying it's right to continue to promote antiquated information, but these campaigns save more lives than they hurt.
A responsible per owner alwyas has a choice & will do the research. Simple logic denotes that any animal will develop more normally with all of their organs & glands intact...

Being a person who adopts from shelters, I can tell you things are pretty grim here in the USA, our shelters are always full--& that's WITH all of these spay/neuter campaigns.
If you've ever taken a visit to a developing nation, outside of the tourist traps & resorts, where the real country is, no one spays or neuters, the infrastructure for these programs is not there.
It's survival of the fittest from birth to death & the # of unwanted, uncared for, & suffering, starving animals is something that you can't shake, the numbers are astronomical. So while I don't agree with everything about these spay/neuter campaigns, I've seen the alternative.

 

[NeSaxena]

So I'm gonna add a question here for info's sake. Most of you know Boone has an undescended testicle, which the vet can't find right now. The advice I've received is to get him neutered once he's neuterable age (I'm waiting till he's at least two) but not wait too long after that as he could get testicular cancer. Are you saying that if I don't get him neutered, his chances of some kind of cancer are LOWER than if I do get him snipped?

 

[Catia]

I don't know for sure, I would think the risk would be less for cancer in the case of an undescended testicle, because there is already a deformity, but I am not sure how this transfers to the canine species.

My 'theory' being that the undescended testicle is more of a congenital issue, & inherited genetically, or, at the very least, a result of improper hormonal balance in the womb while the bitch was pregnant. If the vet cannot find it, it may or may not exist.
An undescended testical may put pooch at more risk for health issues period. Testicles maintain a slightly different body temperature & cells have instructions to develop in their specific environment, so a change in ambient temp may give cells a different set of instructons & they can go haywire because of it. That doesn't always mean cancer, but does mean cycts & odd cell growth & reproduction.
In the case of humans, it varies, depending upon the reason & how much of that testicle developed properly, & the surrounding tissue.

Usually an undescended testicle will mean lessened sperm count due to change in temperature of the testicle.

LOL I had a childhood friend who has that, he was told he'd not be able to have children, EVER--even if he had surgery to correct, & was told the surgery would not change anything- At 18--he became a father. So if a human DR doesn't know for sure, a vet is even less likely to have a clue.