Looking for ANY studies on dog/pack behavior

[Boxergirl]

If we are taking children (human children) I have to say imo it is really dependent on the kid. There are so many different types of personalities. I know Sean and his brothers were all spanked regularly and they joke about it laughing about how their parents weren't strong enough to cause them any pain, and it was clearly not in any way traumatic for them. For me as a child anyone raising their voice to me would leave me in tears and raising a hand pretty much would shut me down mentally etc for at least a day. I don't think when it comes to child rearing that there is truly a "one size fits all" response. Then again I haven't raised kids yet (just helped raise my much younger sisters) so maybe there is some magical secret I don't yet know.

Actually, I was initially just responding when Season said, "some people ... don't spank their kids because they consider that hitting..." Since "spank" is synonymous, by definition, with "hit" I was pointing out that technically spanking is hitting. As is smacking, walloping, whacking, etc. By definition. I was never debating if it was abusive or not. IMO, that's totally dependent upon the delivery and whether it's traumatic to the child, as you said, Nik.

​

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Iymala, just so as you know the dog I'm talking about. She is a very high drive (that's how you would describe her, not me as it actually doesn't tell us much about her behaviour but that's a discussion for another time) herding dog with a history of chasing and biting other dogs. So, she's not the easy dog you're describing, that's just an argument lazy trainers use to cover their own lack of knowledge of training.

If she was with you, I have no doubt that you'd think some of her behaviour needs physical correction, where as i see the need to change it. That's not semantics.

Secondly, my acceptance of the possibility of non aversive training makes me more open minded, not less. I used to train a long time ago using corrections which is what many here forget. I rejected it a long time ago.

 

[marke]

I've watched quite few dogs get raised by other dogs from birth to death , and I've seen some pretty harsh corrections go down ....... seems to me negative corrections to shape behavior is a pretty normal/natural occurrence

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

Depends on the relationship you want with your dog. I'd rather train mine with intelligence and compassion than rely on physically correcting her.

 

[marke]

I actually think the only difference in the relationship between you and your dog is in your mind , not the dogs..........I've never had a dog that held a fair appropriate negative correction against me ....I personally believe many behaviors are not alterable any way other than physical , my opinion is you begin as mild as possible and escalate to the level necessary to stop the behavior ..... I have an example for you , maybe you can tell me how it would have been done without physical correction ....... my dogs are all related , they all have to co-exist . I've had some grow up to be over the top dog aggressive ....... I had a pup would attack his littermates , by 8 weeks he was seriously attacking them , drawing blood as often as not , latch on with deep bites and shake , the other other pup would be screaming ........ I had to keep him in a separate pen starting at 8 weeks , i'd put them together when I was around ...... i'd spend almost the entire time breaking him off the other pups , when i'd break him off he'd try and bite me ......I knew I couldn't place a pup like that , he was staying here ...... his mom and aunt took care of the behavior in no time ..... it took me a bit longer ......he's 8 months now and smiles at the sight of me , can't be close enough to me , his behavior towards me is no different than his brother or sister who are here with him , his sister got some physical correction , I don't think his brother ever did , he's just to laid back and sweet ....... how would you handle this pups behavior without getting physical ?

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

By ensuring unwanted behaviour can't occur and reinforcing the bejesus out of wanted behaviour. I was at a seminar recently given by Ken Ramirez who showed a case study of an ex fighting pitbull (not a bait dog) who was introduced successfully to two other dogs with a history if fighting. It can be done if you know how and are open to the possibility of it.

 

[marke]

By ensuring unwanted behaviour can't occur and reinforcing the bejesus out of wanted behaviour. I was at a seminar recently given by Ken Ramirez who showed a case study of an ex fighting pitbull (not a bait dog) who was introduced successfully to two other dogs with a history if fighting. It can be done if you know how and are open to the possibility of it.

the wanted behavior is to not attack the other dogs when i'm not on top of him , so the desired behavior is doing nothing , so I would reward him for doing nothing ? the only way to ensure the behavior did not occur would be to keep them apart ..... as soon as you open his pen he made a beeline for a dog , he'd been waiting all day for the opportunity .... if I let the other dogs out last he'd linger around just waiting for me to let one out , you could not distract him , I've grabbed him by the nape of the neck and he'd be so locked in he didn't even notice it ..... he's not totally cured right now but manageable and he don't try to bite me , which will be a good thing when he's a 4yr old 140lb dog ....... as far as his aunt and mom , he is totally cured of that, and he still likes them ............ i'd have had to have met mr. Ramirez's pitbull before i'd buy into what he accomplished ....... I've seen plenty of tractable game pitbulls , maybe most ......... i'm no dog trainer , but my thought is you have to let the behavior happen and correct it ..... i'm actually to a point now where not letting it happen is what i'm shooting for , he's somewhat distractible at this point ....

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

We'll agree to differ, and that's cool.

 

[marke]

We'll agree to differ, and that's cool.

no problem , I should have said reward them for everything and anything instead of attacking a dog , as opposed to saying reward him for nothing .......... I've "trained" dogs to not do a lot of things when i'm around ........ I had a dog that figured out on her own if you weren't paying her attention she'd bite you and it'd get her your attention , while it wasn't a mean bite , it could , and often did leave you with a heck of a bruise ....... I personally saw no way to stop it other than let her know the attention she got herself was negative , I personally wouldn't know what i'd reward her for or how .............. personally I don't believe game bred dogs are anymore dog aggressive than any breed , they were/are not bred for dog aggression , they are bred for gameness ..... most of those dogs are raised and kept in close proximity to other dogs .....lots of folks use gamedogs as catchdogs , where they need to work around other dogs , often strange dogs ...... a non dog aggressive dog will fight .......... I think I have a 4yr old ddb bitch that is more dog aggressive than any pitbull I've ever known ...... and the little male is way more out of hand at his age than she ever was ......

 

[goatnipples2002]

Okay an update on Mr.Tig. We walk 3.5 miles EVERY night. My walking (groin) muscles love me right now lol. He walks fairly good for a 115lb 11mo old. When he sees another dog he loses common sense and instincts take over. He pulls through the prong soemtimes. I can usually control him but I hope with constant exposure he learns other dogs are okay. My kids continue to feed him snacks...he finally likes them , but I think the novelty has worn off and the kids are givinhg him his space. He and my female seem to play alot more. They play fight and bite each others lips and neck fat. He has helped my female gain a huge amount of confidence and she is teaching him its okay to not be afraid of regular stuff. I'm building a couple spring poles for them tomorrow. getting weighted vests soon and then hopefully a bite sleeve in the spring. Both my dogs prey drive is insane. I feel sorry for any molesters that try some stupid shiz at my house or any sneaky boys.

Now Tig wont go to sleep unless he is right by my side. Does that mean he's scared or that he needs me or respects me?

As someone else stated u guys are talking about experiences with pups. Raising pups are EASY compared to a fckd dog that is intact and a teenager. I have learned a TON because of this dude. The lord works in mysterious ways I always wanted the knowledge now I'm acquiring it. So far so good.