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Lunging and barking at strangers, bit a neighbor

7121548

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Hector! I like how it has an actual photo showing where to measure. That's good to know about the caged muzzles--thank you. How long did it take to receive your muzzle after you ordered it?
 

7121548

Well-Known Member
Drat. Sorry that didn't work out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It looks like a decent piece of equipment though! I wish it fit since I got it for a great price on Amazon, but returning it is easy so nothing lost here.
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Hector! I like how it has an actual photo showing where to measure. That's good to know about the caged muzzles--thank you. How long did it take to receive your muzzle after you ordered it?

I don't remember, but maybe a month.
 

goatnipples2002

Well-Known Member
I'm dealing with a 1yo fear aggressive Corso right now. We have made HUGE progress in 6 weeks. Mine was unexercised, unsocialized, intact/testosterone kicked in, food aggressive and had a grudge against kids...I have 3 kids. We battled and he realized I dont play. He was used to running his old house and them fearing him. He tried me twice and lost twice. At 3.5yo I might just call it a lost cause especially if u have no experience with dogs that bite. Your lucky he didnt hurt anybody bad. A prong collar and muzzle are a must. Had me or my kids got bit that dog would be dead. Make sure your insurance covers him incase he does get loose.

My boy Tig now respects my kids and he protects them. He listens to me. He hasnt growled seriously in weeks. Now I have a 2, 3, and 10yo that have been monumental in his training. He snapped at my oldest the 1st day we had him and my sister the 2nd day...I thank GOD we had the baskerville ultra. Now he was only in the muzzle for 3 days and haven't needed it since. I realize my case is way different than yours, but DAILY 3 mile walks and CONSTANT rules and boundaries have shown to be great attitude adjusters.
 

teodora

Well-Known Member
i've got a muzzle for Jack yesterday. In the last week he bit 3 dogs and a neighbor. He doesn't show any kind of aggression at home...
Because the "switch" from a happy easy going boy to aggressiveness happened so quicky, I obviously didn't have time to order the muzzle so I got what I found in the pet shops around: Baskerville Ultra Size 6 Black:
12106881_10206967624381860_8752133583052211761_n.jpg

Some more specs here: http://leerburg.com/1395.htm
 

7121548

Well-Known Member
The Baskerville Ultra in size 6 was too small for this guy. I could barely get it past his nose! I'm waiting for the custom leather one I ordered to come in the mail.

Hopefully that behavior in Jack is just a result of being a teenager and he'll outgrow it soon. I can see why you'd be worried about him breaking through fences!
 

7121548

Well-Known Member
I'm dealing with a 1yo fear aggressive Corso right now. We have made HUGE progress in 6 weeks. Mine was unexercised, unsocialized, intact/testosterone kicked in, food aggressive and had a grudge against kids...I have 3 kids. We battled and he realized I dont play. He was used to running his old house and them fearing him. He tried me twice and lost twice. At 3.5yo I might just call it a lost cause especially if u have no experience with dogs that bite. Your lucky he didnt hurt anybody bad. A prong collar and muzzle are a must. Had me or my kids got bit that dog would be dead. Make sure your insurance covers him incase he does get loose.

My boy Tig now respects my kids and he protects them. He listens to me. He hasnt growled seriously in weeks. Now I have a 2, 3, and 10yo that have been monumental in his training. He snapped at my oldest the 1st day we had him and my sister the 2nd day...I thank GOD we had the baskerville ultra. Now he was only in the muzzle for 3 days and haven't needed it since. I realize my case is way different than yours, but DAILY 3 mile walks and CONSTANT rules and boundaries have shown to be great attitude adjusters.

Applying constant rules and boundaries has seemed to be helping a bit. He just gets easily distracted when we're not inside at home and it's sometimes difficult to get him to refocus (though it seems like he's been improving). I'm glad to hear you've made lots of progress with your dog and hope he continues to get better!
 

7121548

Well-Known Member
The ultra 6 fit over my boys muzzle just fine but hes only 1.

How long have u owned Dozer?

I've had him for almost 4 months now. He was actually good with most people when I first got him--not so much anymore. He barks at house guests too. I think at his age, it's probably more about managing the behavior than trying to change it.
 

teodora

Well-Known Member
The wrinkly flaps make it difficult to find a properly fitting muzzle! Hopefully Luna and Sophia won't need muzzles!
Sophia for sure - Luna might need one if she decides at some point in her life not to listen. She's the first one to bark at everybody.
 
Just a thought. How much socialization have they had?

Dogs have this amazing ability to learn new things. But only if they are receiving the right information to modify undesired behaviors. Some people unknowingly actually reinforce unwanted behaviors.

I realized I was doing this with my dogs. We have social sessions often, but when we are at home relaxing, if someone is walking outside, they run out and bark and by not correcting them, I'm basically telling them that it's acceptable behavior.

It's not acceptable when we are out and about. It's absolutely not allowed on leash. By not telling them otherwise, they are basically being conditioned to behave that way. I do dog sitting and boarding, obviously I don't want my dogs greeting customers in this way.

It's my job to be extra vigilant, to direct, and to guide every single interaction they have. Animal, human, or otherwise. Honestly it's changed the whole way my dogs are allowed to move about my house/property. Most of the time now the doggie door is closed. I feel guilty as generally I like them to be "free". But until this rush and bark with hackles up behavior is not a factor anymore, it is what it is. /shrug
 

7121548

Well-Known Member
Just a thought. How much socialization have they had?

Dogs have this amazing ability to learn new things. But only if they are receiving the right information to modify undesired behaviors. Some people unknowingly actually reinforce unwanted behaviors.

I realized I was doing this with my dogs. We have social sessions often, but when we are at home relaxing, if someone is walking outside, they run out and bark and by not correcting them, I'm basically telling them that it's acceptable behavior.

It's not acceptable when we are out and about. It's absolutely not allowed on leash. By not telling them otherwise, they are basically being conditioned to behave that way. I do dog sitting and boarding, obviously I don't want my dogs greeting customers in this way.

It's my job to be extra vigilant, to direct, and to guide every single interaction they have. Animal, human, or otherwise. Honestly it's changed the whole way my dogs are allowed to move about my house/property. Most of the time now the doggie door is closed. I feel guilty as generally I like them to be "free". But until this rush and bark with hackles up behavior is not a factor anymore, it is what it is. /shrug

I'm not sure how much socialization he had prior to him living with me. He wasn't at the shelter long enough for the staff and volunteers to get a feel for his personality, and the former owner didn't tell them much either.

Regarding the corrections, I don't want him to associate strangers with a negative consequence, so I just try to distract him and keep him calm, then reward him when he doesn't bark or lunge. I'm not sure what kind of correction to employ if he decides to lunge at someone since I don't use a prong collar. He will ignore a firm "no" from me if he's already fixated on someone, but I try not to let it get to that point. I'm working on getting him focused on me and ignoring everyone (and every dog) else. The trainer thinks trying to socialize him at his age is futile, and there's no way I'd even try it until we've gotten the muzzle. What method of correction were you using when the dogs were darting towards people walking outside?

I agree that the owner does need to be vigilant and guide every interaction the dog has. I'm hoping things will improve as time passes and he begins to trust me more, since 4 months is still a relatively short period of time.
 
I don't use the prong either. I just use a flat collar but I pop it just like you would a prong. I always give a verbal command too depending on the severity of the behavior. Lately, AHAH! Is enough.
[video=youtube;__mQAQdXzFQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__mQAQdXzFQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]


If Hank was being particularly aggressive verbally it would sound much more serious, like a deep growl, and I use Noooo (deep, drawn out a bit, serious, scolding tone of voice).
[video=youtube;utW3AOWnuDk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utW3AOWnuDk&feature=youtu.be[/video]

That's to get the message across that immediately what he is doing is unacceptable. That also gets his attention. If your correction doesn't get his attention then focus work pre-needing corrections is suggested. Which it sounds like that is exactly what you are doing. Once you have his attention, put him in a down.

The trick seriously is breaking the fixation and submitting to your will. Without that, there is no real control. Maybe the prong is better at getting the message across I dunno. From the videos I've seen it deff has more of an effect of getting their attention during a tense situation. I rule by tone of voice. That's not to say I want put Hank on the floor if I initially failed to get his attention when he's doing something unacceptable. Most people can't physically force their dog to do anything though. I keep left Hand on leash and grab the scruff of his neck with my right and force him down and to the side, until he's on the ground and submissive. Same thing a dog would do to teach manners.

You are there with the dog. If you feel unsafe without a muzzle you would know best. Once you get to the point where you can gain attention and a down. Then I would try socializing. He's not going to associate your correction of a bad behavior with the stranger. He already has a negative association with the stranger or he wouldn't be acting like that in the first place.

As far as "at this age" I call bullshit. Prob just to much of a task for the trainer to bother. It's not easy and it doesn't happen first try or overnight.

Without being hands on, and seeing the exact behaviors it's easy to throw advice out there. I can only speak from my personal experience. Sometimes you have to escalate (yourself) in order to deescalate the situation. Especially as far as aggression goes. If he's in an elevated state of mind and he's not convinced you can handle the situation by getting him to listen or forcing him to submit, you've already lost.

This is all IMO, IME, FYI. There's more than one way to skin a rabbit etc etc. That all goes without saying.
 

Hector

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure how much socialization he had prior to him living with me. He wasn't at the shelter long enough for the staff and volunteers to get a feel for his personality, and the former owner didn't tell them much either.

Regarding the corrections, I don't want him to associate strangers with a negative consequence, so I just try to distract him and keep him calm, then reward him when he doesn't bark or lunge. I'm not sure what kind of correction to employ if he decides to lunge at someone since I don't use a prong collar. He will ignore a firm "no" from me if he's already fixated on someone, but I try not to let it get to that point. I'm working on getting him focused on me and ignoring everyone (and every dog) else. The trainer thinks trying to socialize him at his age is futile, and there's no way I'd even try it until we've gotten the muzzle. What method of correction were you using when the dogs were darting towards people walking outside?

I agree that the owner does need to be vigilant and guide every interaction the dog has. I'm hoping things will improve as time passes and he begins to trust me more, since 4 months is still a relatively short period of time.

What kinds of things are you doing with him on leash?
 

7121548

Well-Known Member
I don't use the prong either. I just use a flat collar but I pop it just like you would a prong. I always give a verbal command too depending on the severity of the behavior. Lately, AHAH! Is enough.
[video=youtube;__mQAQdXzFQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__mQAQdXzFQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]


If Hank was being particularly aggressive verbally it would sound much more serious, like a deep growl, and I use Noooo (deep, drawn out a bit, serious, scolding tone of voice).
[video=youtube;utW3AOWnuDk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utW3AOWnuDk&feature=youtu.be[/video]

That's to get the message across that immediately what he is doing is unacceptable. That also gets his attention. If your correction doesn't get his attention then focus work pre-needing corrections is suggested. Which it sounds like that is exactly what you are doing. Once you have his attention, put him in a down.

The trick seriously is breaking the fixation and submitting to your will. Without that, there is no real control. Maybe the prong is better at getting the message across I dunno. From the videos I've seen it deff has more of an effect of getting their attention during a tense situation. I rule by tone of voice. That's not to say I want put Hank on the floor if I initially failed to get his attention when he's doing something unacceptable. Most people can't physically force their dog to do anything though. I keep left Hand on leash and grab the scruff of his neck with my right and force him down and to the side, until he's on the ground and submissive. Same thing a dog would do to teach manners.

You are there with the dog. If you feel unsafe without a muzzle you would know best. Once you get to the point where you can gain attention and a down. Then I would try socializing. He's not going to associate your correction of a bad behavior with the stranger. He already has a negative association with the stranger or he wouldn't be acting like that in the first place.

As far as "at this age" I call bullshit. Prob just to much of a task for the trainer to bother. It's not easy and it doesn't happen first try or overnight.

Without being hands on, and seeing the exact behaviors it's easy to throw advice out there. I can only speak from my personal experience. Sometimes you have to escalate (yourself) in order to deescalate the situation. Especially as far as aggression goes. If he's in an elevated state of mind and he's not convinced you can handle the situation by getting him to listen or forcing him to submit, you've already lost.

This is all IMO, IME, FYI. There's more than one way to skin a rabbit etc etc. That all goes without saying.

He wears a front-hook harness, so I'm not sure popping the leash would have the same effect. I caught him staring at someone today and popped the leash; he didn't even blink. "NO" didn't get his attention either. I had to stand in front of him and block his view, and only then could I get him to sit.

What do you mean by escalating oneself? Because I'm sure it's like you said, he doesn't think I can handle a situation, especially when he's in an elevated state of mind. I think I've been doing ok acting calm and in control when walking him, but I know there's room for improvement, and part of that might be figuring out what corrections are most effective with him.
 

7121548

Well-Known Member
What kinds of things are you doing with him on leash?

We usually practice having him look at me when I call his name as we're walking. I also change directions randomly, just to make sure he stays attentive and close to me. I throw in a "sit" on occasion to get him used to taking commands outside. When there are people in the distance and he notices them, I'll have him sit and have him focus on me. When people walk by, I have him sit and feed him treats so he'll ignore them. I'm open to any other suggestions you may have!

I do try to keep the walks short when there are people around though, just because I want to minimize the risk of him trying to attack someone as we're going through this learning process.
 
That's one reason why I personally don't like a harness. Not that they are inherently bad just that, you can't really communicate well with your dog that way. It makes them believe they have too much control. It's mental. Dogs WANT to be told what to do. It's in their nature.

But, they aren't going to listen to you if they don't believe you or trust you. In fact they will make their own decisions if you don't make them for them or teach them what a good decision is. If they feel they are left to come up with their own decision, it's not comfortable for them. When they are uncomfortable they can be scared, fearful, aggressive. They can become confident, domineering, snobby, and greedy too. Any combination.

IF they aren't told to behave and MADE to behave a certain way, or believe that you will make them. They do it their way. You don't choose.

In my mind If I had a front hook harness in a bad situation I would pull HARD to make the dog face me. But you can't do that if you are afraid He's gonna bite your face. He will feel as if you are not in control to begin with, you pull him around to face you, breaking his chain of thought. But if you're projecting fear and he feels HE has to make a decision. It may not be the desirable one.

If you are afraid he's gonna bite you, and you DON'T 100% break the thought process he is determined is going to play out, he just might. He has no confidence or trust in his handler. I'm not saying it's your fault, you haven't had him that long. The longer they have a habit or a "belief"(that humans can't handle the situation) the more he will feel its up to him to handle it.

So if you ARE afraid def put a muzzle on before doing anything I say lol. IF you think he will bite it's a necessary precaution. You don't want to be in a critical situation and not be able to physically control him AND mentally control him, it could end poorly.

By escalating I mean in tone, posture, and if necessary escalate to physical contact (not pain). You aren't trying to hurt him, and if you can't physically force him to do anything this method wouldn't work anyways. But basically if he's being aggressive you have to make him believe that's unacceptable and to stop immediately. You can't make him do anything if he's in control. He either decides to do as you command and if he won't either by choice or by not knowing the difference. You force submission.

The most submissive position they could be in is a down. Even more submissive than that is on the side( paws not on ground) or on their back. In a way it makes them feel helpless if they are forced into this position (physically or mentally). Feeling helpless means they are not in control. If they aren't in control, and you put them in a helpless position than... The only conclusion can be that YOU are in control.

They may not like that. They may indeed bite. Shit's not pretty but that's why you don't see videos of how they ACTUALLY stop aggression for good. They show you AFTER they make them submit. You are not alpha if dog does not submit to you on command. That's dog behavior. You see dogs interact in that exact way all the time.

Older dog gets growly, younger dog submits. Alpha dog projects power and confidence, the others follow. Dog pulls you down the street on a harness acting aggressive towards others, making his own decisions. Who's following?

It's all connected. They don't associate with rewards or treats with outside entities. They associate with their own behaviors and feelings, and beliefs. Dogs take everything personally. Usually they only think about themselves. If they think they can take care of themselves better than you can, they will try.

One way to help you get a HUGE dog like a mastiff down into a submissive position with less physical strength is to actually reach across their chest and grab their front opposite leg and use your weight to push them that way. This is very close and personal position to be in and if you think the dog will bite please use a damn muzzle. I won't be responsible for you trying to help a dog on my advice and have your face bit off.

This is all of course assuming when aggression starts you have absolutely no control other than holding on to the leash, yelling, and projecting fear. If all it takes is a poke with two fingers in his side to break his attention and stop the aggression great. If all it takes is a verbal command great. But by escalate I mean you must control the situation no matter what it takes or find someone who can. Not by fear or pain but as a simple matter of FACT.

Otherwise the dog will continue to make it's own decisions.