Lunging and barking at strangers, bit a neighbor

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

You can't ACT calm and controlled. You have to BE calm and in control. You can't bullshit a bullshitter. They can sense/smell fear, insecurity, doubt. How do you think ptsd dogs work?

Again. The above is one take, on one perceived situation, and written spur of the moment, with little to no context. Take it or leave it. lol

Ultimately it's your, dog, your situation, and your face!

 

[Hector]

If I were you, I'd ditch the front clip harness. The dog is too strong for that type of harness. You need to control the head. Either use a slip leash situated high on the head, flat collar that he won't slip out of or a martingale. First, I would start from the very basics in a very low level distraction environment (maybe in your yard or the front yard or a large open field, tennis court) and teach leash pressure (you can do this with any collar - prong is probably best, but any is going to work) Techniques and concepts are the same no matter what you use. I'm going to attach a video so you can see it. Before you do anything else, make sure the dog is fluent with the leash pressure. He should get to a point where he will follow your turns and change of pace without you telling or guiding him AND if you do guide him - very little pressure is going to be needed. Do this on a 6 ft leash, do it on a long line. Slowly work up to harder distractions. Just keep working on this and keep your eye on the dog and make sure to keep at a level where he is still paying attention to you and don't let him get tunnel vision.

[video=youtube;eB8dhKNichw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB8dhKNichw[/video]

[video=youtube;kOl2BtH5vLE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOl2BtH5vLE[/video]

[video=youtube;s8q2AJ4uxBw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8q2AJ4uxBw[/video]

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Great advice Hector. Build trust keep it easy and fun and work up to it. The dogs are all submissive.

 

[Boxergirl]

I think it's a very risky idea to force a reactive dog into submission. Especially if the dog is fear reactive. First of all this is not a dog that the OP has raised from a pup. This is a dog that they rescued four months ago. Working with a rescue dog, of unknown background, can be tricky work - and dangerous. It's around the three month time frame that I always saw problem behavior arise in my foster dogs, if they were going to have a problem behavior. It takes time to build trust. Usually a lot more time than four months. IMO and experience, forcing, poking, etc could easily lead to redirected aggression and loss of trust. Building trust is imperative. Yes the OP needs to let the dog know that they have control of the situation, but that can be done in better ways than forcing submission. IMO.

OP, I agree that a front hook harness is not the right tool for this dog at this time, and I think Hector's advice is spot-on. Most important is to build trust and show him you can handle whatever comes up, without scaring the bejeezus out of him. And to keep everyone safe while you do that. You know your dog better than we do. I've just been on the receiving end of redirected aggression and I could place no blame on the dog. His background was unknown and he was a newer foster. With time, and mostly positive methods, he became a wonderful boy and was placed in a family after long term fostering.

 

[7121548]

Thanks for the advice and videos, Hector! I'm going to watch them again when I get home and start this leash work with him. I'll give the flat collar or slip leash another go (maybe the slip leash is better for controlling the pressure?). We started using the front-hook harness early on because it made it easier to stop him from pulling, but he hasn't really been pulling lately. Teaching him leash pressure seems like it will be greatly beneficial. Thanks again!!!

 

[Hector]

Thanks for the advice and videos, Hector! I'm going to watch them again when I get home and start this leash work with him. I'll give the flat collar or slip leash another go (maybe the slip leash is better for controlling the pressure?). We started using the front-hook harness early on because it made it easier to stop him from pulling, but he hasn't really been pulling lately. Teaching him leash pressure seems like it will be greatly beneficial. Thanks again!!!

Slip collar high on the head (right behind the ears - sensitive area vs mid or base of neck) gives you more control because the area is more sensitive. It's always good when a dog doesn't pull. Here's another name/video of leash pressure. I like to use food in the beginning to speed up the learning process, but it may be a distraction for some dogs (food causing arousal). This method works well with my dogs. It really helps build attentiveness and I really feel like if the dog is paying attention to you, it helps them be calm and ignore a lot of distractions around them.

Here's just working with a flat collar. There's a part 2. I think it's on her blog. It used to be on youtube.

[video=youtube;BIWyBkNe1_I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIWyBkNe1_I[/video]

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Boxergirl you are absolutely correct. I don't disagree with you one bit. There are so many good paths to take with a submissive dog. Redirection of aggression is exactly why you would want to use a muzzle.

The example scenario that my method would be used for is a dog that is in control and unwilling to relinquish control/submit. A dog with 0 trust, and not the tools or mindset to move one with other, more positive methods.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I'm not 100% sure a slip collar would be good to use with a non-submissive dog. If they are pulling and not willing to be controlled they can actually hurt themselves as the harder they pull the tighter the slip lead gets.

With a prong collar or martingale, the amount it actually constricts on the neck is controlled, not infinite.

 

[7121548]

Thank you, EverythingEnglishMastiff and Boxergirl for your input! Reading about your experiences definitely helps me out.

 

[Hector]

I'm not 100% sure a slip collar would be good to use with a non-submissive dog. If they are pulling and not willing to be controlled they can actually hurt themselves as the harder they pull the tighter the slip lead gets.

With a prong collar or martingale, the amount it actually constricts on the neck is controlled, not infinite.

Slip collar is best for non submissive dog. No chances of slipping out of your control. Plus that's why you teach them how to release pressure. When the dog understands and complies with leash pressure, there is no pulling or choking so there is no way to get hurt unless the handler decides to use it as a choking device. Like the shelter pit on a pulling prong. I'm sure those prongs will leave marks and eventually cause punctures if that level of pulling continues. Not going to post videos, but this is one of the reasons why leerburg has a "dominant dog collar" (slip collar) for choking out dogs that act out and if you get his aggressive dogs dvd, you'll see how he uses it.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

He lifts their front feet off the ground and cuts down/off the blood and air flow to the brain. Basically chokes em out. GG.

Have you ever been in a choke hold? I mean really. Ever been choked to the point of passing out?

It creates a unique sensation (other than the pressure around your neck) in your head and body. Makes physical reaction increasingly difficult. If the choke is released immediately upon loss of consciousness, you can actually regain consciousness fairly quickly. It's also extremely disorienting. Depending on how long you actually cut off oxygen to the brain, it can also cause brain damage(maybe i've been choked out too many times lol). Depending on the pressure it can cause neck injuries or even injuries to the trachea.

IMO you are more likely to get redirection to the handler that way. It's a good way to increase fear and aggressiont. Sure they physically "submit". But it's not the type of submission you want. It takes the fight out of them pretty good temporarily though. They use dominant dog collars on dogs that are trained for a certain controlled aggression, the dog is encouraged to make decisions regarding its aggression. These dogs have to maintain that aggression despite the assailant being aggressive towards them.

I assumed in this situation she wanted a dog that believed NO aggression is correct.

How does one dog teach another dog he's being an asshole? Forcing them to the ground with a body slam and/or biting the neck. Continued resistance is met with continued force. They demand respect.

Not one method is best over another in every situation. A method that works for one dog may not work for another. It's best to take in what you can. That way you have have more than one "tool" to use. Find what works best for the dog (or for you, for that matter). Just like people, each individual will learn best in different ways.

You can also introduce an E-Collar into your training. Then use a high level correction when the dog becomes aggressive. I'd love to get some these for my dogs. Implement them into my training. Mostly for off leash when I can't reach them. Little pricey for me /shrug

I've always raised and trained without all these fancy tools. Flat collars are typical, cheap, and used correctly, effective. I can choke my dog with a flat collar too. Grab it and give it a twist. It's a good way to get bit. Even if they can't bite you because of where you are holding them. When you going to let go? After they pass out? Rely on the muzzle? How you get the muzzle on if they won't let you?

I believe building trust, energy projection, tone of voice, and body language are what's important. That's where the real communication takes place. Everything else is just a layer of physical control.

 

[7121548]

I tried the slip leash on Dozer yesterday, and he seemed really unhappy about it until he got the hang of how to release the pressure. Thanks again, Hector, for the videos! I was also able to find a couple videos from Leerburg that were helpful as well (like this one: [video=youtube;ayKD9taWBFM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayKD9taWBFM[/video]). We practiced indoors yesterday, and I haven't had to correct him while walking outside yet. I'm sure there will be lots of people outside when I take him out this afternoon and evening though. The good news is that I'm actually excited to take him out to try this new method, rather than worried or nervous like I have been. I'll let you all know how it works out!

 

[Hector]

Yes, the dog won't understand at first but once they understand that going with the pressure instead of opposing it is a good/nice thing, then it becomes a very powerful tool for the handler and YES the releasing is a BIG part of the exercise. You should almost exaggerate it in the beginning so it's very clear to the dog tension vs release.

Michael Ellis is great.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

He is! I've been watching a lot of him lately.

7121548 Great! Sounds like you are making progress both with your pup and personally. Don't try to do to much too soon so as to keep your success rate high.

 

[goatnipples2002]

With my boy a prong is not an option its a must. Hes tough as nails and strong. He can pull through the prong and I slowly added more and more "snap" to the collar. We walk daily...we started with 2.5 mile walks every night for the 1st month now we walk 4 miles every night its not raining. When we would encounter ppl on our walks my female would have no problem getting pet but he was weary. If he showed the alert signs (ears up) I made him lay down and see that the perceived threat was non existent. Now Im pretty fearless and I'm a natural leader so that part was handled. After a few weeks of walking the same route he started to realize his fear was not justified. He listens to my 3yo when she gives commands and only growls when he doesnt want to be bothered or is startled. Now he tries to get at dogs on our walks and any that go past my house. I'm not sure the best course of action, but what I have been doing is working. We walk past houses that have barking dogs on purpose cause I feel you cant learn how to act in a situation unless you are in it. At 1 st he would lunge and pull me even with a prong and it took me a little bit to regroup and get him under control. Now a couple weeks later he is better, but no where near where my female is. He now will growl, which im okay with, but he does walk past them now and only needs verbal corrections if we are at safe distance. I'm not a pro trainer...I'm just a persistent Corso lover, but here's my suggestions.


Daily walks to expose and deplete energy...minimum of an hour...preferably at night or in areas with less distraction...he needs some, just less.
Use high value treats like bacon. No thing on earth can resist bacon.
Be firm and consistent as a leader....watch some youtube videos on this.
Try to get him around other dogs that act well when HE'S ready so he knows how to act.
Use the muzzle and prong on the walks...if your unsure of the prong try it on yourself...I did. You can and will go to jail if he bites or kills someone.

 

[Hector]

Hey did you get a muzzle and how's everything going these days?

 

[7121548]

I did get a muzzle, but haven't used it yet. Looks like the muzzle training might take a while. He hates even the sight of it. The slip collar has been working fairly well though and he's been much better on walks. Thank you again for your help! He hasn't barked or tried to attack anyone lately, although occasionally he will still stare at someone he finds questionable. He does still stare at and will try to chase every dog he sees. But overall, I feel more confident taking him on walks now. I've also been taking him out to new places where there aren't too many people just to practice walking, and he really seems to have fun exploring. Here he is at the park (sorry for the grainy pic):

 

[Hector]

Do you know if the muzzle fits? I'm thinking of getting one off of that one site. Can you show me a pic of the muzzle you ordered? Even though the pic is grainy, it's still a very beautiful one. Where are you located?

 

[tmricciuto]

I have problems with my girls lunging at dogs and people, and Sage has a crazy prey drive. I just ordered the prong collar and am anxiously awaiting their arrival today. I'm going to get two small carabeners to link to the prong and their collar as Jeff from Solid K9 Training suggests as a back up plan.

 

[7121548]

Do you know if the muzzle fits? I'm thinking of getting one off of that one site. Can you show me a pic of the muzzle you ordered? Even though the pic is grainy, it's still a very beautiful one. Where are you located?

I got the basic, lightweight leather one: Buy Now Leather Basket Mesh Dog Muzzle for Your Mastiff It was really hard to measure him because of all of his loose flappy skin. I used the customer service chat and asked if my measurements sounded right for a neo and they told me my measurements were way off. Then I measured him again several more times and came up with the same numbers so that's what I used. It seems to fit ok, but I haven't really kept it on him for more than 30 seconds. I'll try to take a picture of it later if I can get Dozer to put it on. And we are located right in the heart of downtown Los Angeles!