Showing, Not as Clear Cut as they Say

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Ruby I agree it would be tough to make money off a certain stud or bitch but then I consider worldwide inquiries, like the male I mentioned above. I know he has some "foundation" lines here in the US, Netherlands, Hungary, France, and probably some others. I just know when I see this dog I steer clear lol.

 

[gamestaff]

the idea of separating politics and showing is impossible. in Canada, a judge is "hired" by a club to judge a show. should the judge ever want to get hired again, he / she needs to appease the club who hired him. the actively used judges are those who judge-right according to those making the judging hiring decisions. the integrity of the judge may or may not be in question, but I think it is safe to say that there is a conflict of interest. if I am hosting a show and bringing in a judge, would the judge feel any kind of obligation to putting up my dog or a dog that would reflect well on me? I would assume so. shows have been stacked as long as there have been shows. in larger numbered breeds it is harder to do for sure. 100 years ago people warned of the damage of the show ring. they said it would be the destroyer of breeds and would breed politics and mal-intented breeders. what is being seen now is nothing new. to those breeders trying in the show ring with pure intentions, I feel sorry for you. you will forever face an uphill battle.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Gamestaff there are actual shows (not all of them do this) that will not let club members show at their own show as they consider this a conflict of interest for just the reasons you posted. The kennel club here is a small one so they do still show their dogs here but they are not allowed to have contact with the judges if they are exhibiting, so when helping (this was a few years ago before the corso was allowed to show) I was the only one allowed in the judges room because I had nothing to gain.

 

[Cody]

Ruby, I am certain with more exposure to the CC, the judges will begin to try to learn the standard. As it stands now, there are a few of us here in Alberta showing CKC, one or 2 people showing on the West Coast and one breeder and another independent owner showing on the East Coast. With such small numbers (oh sure last year we had one show with 7 CC and this summer we made it up to 5 lmao), scattered across a huge Country why would they make the Corso a priority? It is just frustrating that there are breeders popping up here very day it seems and the rings are still empty. I wouldn't say it is the judges fault, but the CC community's here in Canada. We are not making it a priority for them to learn the standard.

 

[WalnutCrest]

As an aside ... re: breeding for temperament.

A friend of mine works in AI/ET programs for beef cattle. He was telling me about a call he received one time from a lady in Australia who wanted to import some semen and embryos. He asked her about what she were her most important traits that she was looking for in cattle, and, after some lengthy discussions on a variety of related items, she finally settled with, "temperament, temperament and temperament".

On point with dogs, if you have a poorly behaved specimen, you're not going to have any fun at all with your pooch as a pet. Maybe (s)he'll win in the ring or at the working-dog course (pulling, etc.), but if it has a poor demeanor, no body is having any fun ... and having / breeding dogs is a hobby, and hobbies are supposed to be fun. If it's not, you're not doing it right.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Completely agree with this!

As an aside ... re: breeding for temperament.

A friend of mine works in AI/ET programs for beef cattle. He was telling me about a call he received one time from a lady in Australia who wanted to import some semen and embryos. He asked her about what she were her most important traits that she was looking for in cattle, and, after some lengthy discussions on a variety of related items, she finally settled with, "temperament, temperament and temperament".

On point with dogs, if you have a poorly behaved specimen, you're not going to have any fun at all with your pooch as a pet. Maybe (s)he'll win in the ring or at the working-dog course (pulling, etc.), but if it has a poor demeanor, no body is having any fun ... and having / breeding dogs is a hobby, and hobbies are supposed to be fun. If it's not, you're not doing it right.

To be honest although I think people getting out with correct dogs is important for judges so that they see dogs that are correct, they still don't seem to always know what is in front of them. This isn't just judges that haven't judged the breed before, this is supposed to be those with experience. The responsibility of the educating the judges lies with the breed clubs and their committee of people with various amounts of experience and types of dogs to avoid one group trying to skew things their way. I would not assume that is not a priority of the breed clubs here in Canada, as it is a lot more than just showing up to a show with your dog. You have to get a committee with knowledgeable people that can put personal agendas aside to prepare materials, set up the seminars, get judges interested in attending and then agreement on the dogs being used, it is not so black and white as just get out there with correct dogs and show, there are lots of people out there showing dogs in their opinion are correct but perhaps in the eyes of others are not. So by all be means continue to show but don't assume their is not a priority of the clubs to not provided proper educations to the judges.

 

[mountainfila]

Gamestaff there are actual shows (not all of them do this) that will not let club members show at their own show as they consider this a conflict of interest for just the reasons you posted. The kennel club here is a small one so they do still show their dogs here but they are not allowed to have contact with the judges if they are exhibiting, so when helping (this was a few years ago before the corso was allowed to show) I was the only one allowed in the judges room because I had nothing to gain.

There are ways around by getting someone else to show your dog if your hosting and i feel this is wrong also but it does happen. Used to happen all the time in the ADBA shows when i was showing my american pit bull terriers, the lady would have other people show her dogs but with what she was breeding the judge could tell whos dogs they were and most of the time she walked away with ribbons and trophies. Alot of people were getting pissed off because of this and stopped coming to the shows. She would pick up the judges from the airport then they would go back to her place and she would take him through her kennels to show him her dogs and then take them out to supper etc. I dont think that is very fair when this kind of thing happens, kinda stacks the deck in your favor even if you have a crappy dog it can still make champion in a short amount of time.

 

[cinnamon roll]

It is so sad and a complete disservice for any breed to see this behavior. The ring is just as bad as politicians being that they are crooked and can be bought. It truly breaks my heart to see what the ring has become.

There are ways around by getting someone else to show your dog if your hosting and i feel this is wrong also but it does happen. Used to happen all the time in the ADBA shows when i was showing my american pit bull terriers, the lady would have other people show her dogs but with what she was breeding the judge could tell whos dogs they were and most of the time she walked away with ribbons and trophies. Alot of people were getting pissed off because of this and stopped coming to the shows. She would pick up the judges from the airport then they would go back to her place and she would take him through her kennels to show him her dogs and then take them out to supper etc. I dont think that is very fair when this kind of thing happens, kinda stacks the deck in your favor even if you have a crappy dog it can still make champion in a short amount of time.

 

[northernmastiff]

The best experience with a judge I have had was one time when I happened to stop in at a pet store the week before a show. A judge saw my lab, assessed her right there and told me she would definitely win the next show. I said great, she was at a show the following week. He went all quiet and the questioned me on the show. Turns out he would have been my judge and he politely told me that he would have to ask me to leave the ring as he had a biased view of her now. I should have been pissed but I said thanks and then left her at home to watch the show. It spoke volumes about his integrity. I wish we would see that more.

 

[Cody]

There are ways around by getting someone else to show your dog if your hosting and i feel this is wrong also but it does happen. Used to happen all the time in the ADBA shows when i was showing my american pit bull terriers, the lady would have other people show her dogs but with what she was breeding the judge could tell whos dogs they were and most of the time she walked away with ribbons and trophies. Alot of people were getting pissed off because of this and stopped coming to the shows. She would pick up the judges from the airport then they would go back to her place and she would take him through her kennels to show him her dogs and then take them out to supper etc. I dont think that is very fair when this kind of thing happens, kinda stacks the deck in your favor even if you have a crappy dog it can still make champion in a short amount of time.

LMAO! Oh NOOOOO... that has never happened in the Corso community LMAO!

 

[Cody]

Completely agree with this!




To be honest although I think people getting out with correct dogs is important for judges so that they see dogs that are correct, they still don't seem to always know what is in front of them. This isn't just judges that haven't judged the breed before, this is supposed to be those with experience. The responsibility of the educating the judges lies with the breed clubs and their committee of people with various amounts of experience and types of dogs to avoid one group trying to skew things their way. I would not assume that is not a priority of the breed clubs here in Canada, as it is a lot more than just showing up to a show with your dog. You have to get a committee with knowledgeable people that can put personal agendas aside to prepare materials, set up the seminars, get judges interested in attending and then agreement on the dogs being used, it is not so black and white as just get out there with correct dogs and show, there are lots of people out there showing dogs in their opinion are correct but perhaps in the eyes of others are not. So by all be means continue to show but don't assume their is not a priority of the clubs to not provided proper educations to the judges.

Not sure who brought up breed clubs, or their responsibility. Unfortunately they too have their cliques, are not as unbiased as they pretend. And given a certain comment made after the most recent CC won BIS, it is apparent that some cannot get past personal agendas to see the dog. Type is Type, being a member of a breed club does not mean that one knows what that is. A "travesty" really .Will be interesting to see the dogs chosen to represent by each club here. I would be willing to place money that I could name them here and now.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

As an aside ... re: breeding for temperament.

A friend of mine works in AI/ET programs for beef cattle. He was telling me about a call he received one time from a lady in Australia who wanted to import some semen and embryos. He asked her about what she were her most important traits that she was looking for in cattle, and, after some lengthy discussions on a variety of related items, she finally settled with, "temperament, temperament and temperament".

On point with dogs, if you have a poorly behaved specimen, you're not going to have any fun at all with your pooch as a pet. Maybe (s)he'll win in the ring or at the working-dog course (pulling, etc.), but if it has a poor demeanor, no body is having any fun ... and having / breeding dogs is a hobby, and hobbies are supposed to be fun. If it's not, you're not doing it right.

Agreed 100%

The best experience with a judge I have had was one time when I happened to stop in at a pet store the week before a show. A judge saw my lab, assessed her right there and told me she would definitely win the next show. I said great, she was at a show the following week. He went all quiet and the questioned me on the show. Turns out he would have been my judge and he politely told me that he would have to ask me to leave the ring as he had a biased view of her now. I should have been pissed but I said thanks and then left her at home to watch the show. It spoke volumes about his integrity. I wish we would see that more.

Wow just wow, so many flaws in the ring.

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Not sure who brought up breed clubs, or their responsibility. Unfortunately they too have their cliques, are not as unbiased as they pretend. And given a certain comment made after the most recent CC won BIS, it is apparent that some cannot get past personal agendas to see the dog. Type is Type, being a member of a breed club does not mean that one knows what that is. A "travesty" really .Will be interesting to see the dogs chosen to represent by each club here. I would be willing to place money that I could name them here and now.

The breed clubs are the corso community up here is Canada. And you are right they do have their cliques in them, and factions that don't get along or see eye to eye on a lot of things. No one is unbias, that is why there is a COMMITTEE so that one person's personal agenda doesn't become the focus. As for getting past personal agendas and recent comments I have seen more than my fair share in PMs and emails that are certainly no better. A "tragedy" really! I haven't got a clue who is going to be chosen to represent the breed for educational purposes you would have to contact those committees for the club. But you are always more than welcome to join the clubs Cody and if you think your dog(s) would be a good dog to provide for educational purposes, then volunteer her or him or both.

 

[Cody]

I wouldn't say they ARE the Corso Community, but yes definitely a part of it. There seems to be more CC people that are not members of clubs out doing things then there are that are club members, hopefully that will change. I personally am not that interested in the politics of the breed, as I find that the breed tends to get left behind in the agenda's of a few. Yes, emails and PM's are funny things, we all tend to have them Was it a "tragedy"? And here I thought it was a travesty lmao, either way not sure it was an appropriate comment for a BOD of a breed club, on a public forum, do you?

 

[BlackShadowCaneCorso]

Cody I am not going to get into a pissing match with you over who is doing more, members or non-members. You have your opinions and are entitle to them much like anyone else, but much like the individual that doesn’t vote bitching about the way things are run, seems a might pointless doesn’t it? Continue doing what you think is best and I am sure the rest of us will do the same.

 

[Cody]

Cody I am not going to get into a pissing match with you over who is doing more, members or non-members. You have your opinions and are entitle to them much like anyone else, but much like the individual that doesn’t vote bitching about the way things are run, seems a might pointless doesn’t it? Continue doing what you think is best and I am sure the rest of us will do the same.

Not sure how you equate breed clubs with political elections, but if you feel they are on the same level, all the power to you. There are 2 breed clubs in this country, so far... What I was responding to was your comment that "The breed clubs are the corso community up here is Canada", at this point in time there are many people with Corso that chose NOT to be involved with either club, who are out and very active with their dogs. I know personally, I feel pretty safe in knowing that getting my dogs out doing things and being active in the dog community, be it showing, working and therapy I am indeed doing my part for the breed. But regardless of who is in what club, that was not the question I asked you, which has yet to be answered

 

[WalnutCrest]

The best experience with a judge I have had was one time when I happened to stop in at a pet store the week before a show. A judge saw my lab, assessed her right there and told me she would definitely win the next show. I said great, she was at a show the following week. He went all quiet and the questioned me on the show. Turns out he would have been my judge and he politely told me that he would have to ask me to leave the ring as he had a biased view of her now. I should have been pissed but I said thanks and then left her at home to watch the show. It spoke volumes about his integrity. I wish we would see that more.

And, I wish that he would have told you what he did ... you still would have taken her to the show ... and he would have excused you and your girl with everyone watching ... and you and your girl leave the ring with a smile on your face ... this way, both you and the judge could have explained it to everyone exactly what happened and why you were excused.

IMO, it would have helped set the bar a bit higher for all other judges and show participants.

Regardless, the judge exhibited integrity there and is to be commended ... as are you for telling him that she was entered in the show the next weekend.

 

[Mooshi's Mummy]

I have learnt the hard way that sadly it's more about politics and relationships in the rare breeds, plain and simple. You have two choices here, show and expect it at certain shows with certain judges and move on to the next or not. You take satisfaction in the shows and results where the judges are not affiliated and unbiased and trust those judgements as trcorrect and satisfactory. The political placements you have to take them as they are and not let them upset you. Or just don't show. You need a thick skin but it's quite simple really. I have been told that Mooshi should have been given best of breed this year at crufts but it would never have happened because of personal relationships. What's the point of complaining, nothing will change the outcome and I would be the one black listed only to do more damage in the future.

 

[DDBsR4Me]

I have seen dogs in the ring with terrible structure, move like they are lame and in pain and still win. That is my issue with showing, the judges, most are unaware of our breed and standard so just will pick the biggest or by color regardless if the dog is bowing in the front or hobbling around the ring...

I see the same thing with DDBs and it is making me so sad. Judges not knowing the standard are playing a part in ruining my breed. Dogs are winning that shouldn't even be in the ring, then the owners breed on the faults because their dog is a "champion". I wish my breed had never become AKC recognized and I wish they would go back to being "rare".

 

[2nd Chance]

I have not shown for over 20yrs. As this milarky was happening back then. 20yrs on, it is still happening.
I guess we each have a choice, play the game to get your points.
or
opt out.

I did join our local state GSD club. Full of top name breeders with so called great dogs. What i saw was ugly GSD faults.
Squatting frogs. and real bad temperaments in the winners. So yeah, i remain opted out.

The conformation world has sadly little to offer- if you seek a working dog as i would. "Frank and Gina", up the road on the whatsit property has excellent pups for sale though! and that's how it goes. Proven genes, as Frank n Gina's of the world has the dam, the grandmother, 2 of the brothers etc etc all working really well.

and in a working world, the dogs dont give a rats arse who you bought dinner for last night. You can either do the job your bred for, or you cant, on any given day. Seems a bit fairer to me.