Sporadic aggression in female Neo pup, oh, and hello, everyone!

[excelrn]

Hi. &nbsp;I was searching out information to see if this is something normal for a Mastiff puppy, or if something is really wrong, and I came across this forum. &nbsp;I have a 6 month old blue Neo Mastiff, female- Astrid- Divine Strength. &nbsp;Most of the time, she is great- she is incredibly smart, passive enough to roll over and show her belly at times, friendly with strangers (I have been intensive with socializing, although I have one issue there, too). &nbsp;When I first got her at 2 months, she was something of a hellion. &nbsp;Wanted to treat everyone around like littermates, but some positive reinforcement training worked wonders. &nbsp;But we're having these sporadic episodes of aggression with no warning. &nbsp;Tonight I came home from work, let her out of her crate to say hello and play, she played with a toy, ran for a few bites of food, drank from her water bowl (the rest of what was in there), played with the toy, then went to the cat's water bowl. &nbsp;She was making a mess with the cat's water, so I grabbed a towel to put on the floor, and as I neared her with it, she growled. &nbsp;I said something to her, she looked at me then went back to drinking, and I put the towel down. She turned around, growled, jumped towards me, biting! &nbsp;I couldn't get near her after that, until she lost interest in the water bowl. &nbsp;I have historically made a point of doing things with her when she is eating and drinking to prevent food aggression, have taken things out of her mouth, etc. As a result, I've not had any problems with that. Tonight I wasn't even touching her or the water bowl. &nbsp;No obvious trigger. &nbsp;She had water and food available during the day. &nbsp;Most of the other aggressive episodes have involved taking something away from her that she shouldn't have, and usually it's someone else, but I really don't understand what happened tonight. &nbsp;She slightly broke the skin on my stomach (from the biting), and bruised it.<br><br>I previously had a St Bernard, and was looking for another "gentle giant." &nbsp;So many people call Mastiffs gentle giants, but this has not been my experience so far. &nbsp; I feel like I'm having to fight to bring the "good dog" inside, out for everyone to be happy.<br><br>As I said, I had a St Bernard. Cotton was a giant marshmallow. &nbsp;She loved everyone, extremely passive (too passive, sometimes), just a giant lap dog. &nbsp;I also had a Malamute, Ozzie, that we got to keep Cotton company d/t separation anxiety (it worked great). &nbsp;I went out of town and had someone taking care of them for me, but they got loose, and my 2 great, wonderful, loving companions that never showed any aggression &nbsp;in the 4 years we had them, attacked 3 dogs in the neighborhood. &nbsp;I had to surrender them to animal control.<br><br>I don't want something like that to happen again. &nbsp;Astrid is going to be bigger, and I don't want anyone to be at risk from her. &nbsp;Is this just a matter of training? &nbsp;What can I do when she acts like that? &nbsp;I have stayed away from any harsh punishments, using positive reinforcements and time-outs, but I don't know what to do for this.

 

[Smokeycat]

Do you follow the NILIF (nothing in life is free) training method? If not, I would start. At 6 months she could be starting to come into her adult temperament, and start testing just what she can get away with. The fact that she was willing to attack would mean to me that she gets to do nothing that she wants and only what I say. She would either be leashed or crated all the time. That said I don't have any experience with a dog like that, mine allows me to take something and then pouts. There are people on here that may have personal experience. Another thing I have learned on here is that for most of these breeds Gentle Giant is a bit of a misnomer.

 

[moonglow]

It seems that resource guarding is a common issue in Neos, I have seen several threads covering the topic. Maybe you can do a search and see what has worked for the other owners. It could be possible she was growling at the towel, I know occasionally my puppy will become wary of random objects occasionally. I second the NILIF recommendation and also heavy work on just basic obedience (sit, stay, down, heel, etc.). You could try to teach her "Leave It/Walk Away" but you would have to start with low value items and work your way up, it would take time to work up to using it with things she really wants. You should probably make sure you have a reliable "Drop It/Out" also, to prevent future object guarding as she has shown that she tends to guard things. You do the same thing where you start with low value objects that you trade for very high value ones that you hold front of her nose and give to he when she drops, so she learns that if you approach her she gets even better things than she has already. I hope you are able to find something that works for you. As far as being a Gentle Giant, I have heard that applied to OEMs and Great Danes but never a Neo. A while ago there was a thread rating mastiff breeds from hard to soft or something and Neos rated around Filas for the most part, very hard. Though as Smokeycat said, even softer breeds can be hard it depend on the dog.

 

[masteneo]

At our little aboad we have a big rule about the growling at pack members. i know a few of you will get mad about this but..... When a small pup under 50 - 60 lbs growls at you under no cercumstance do you back down. the pup feels that they have dominated you. you are now preceived as under the the pup now. The next time the pup does it , the pu[p will precieve you as trying to step out of pack order. So having said all that. The very 1st time pup trys to do this grab them by the scruff of the neck and pen to the floor firmly but not so much as to physical harm or tramatize pup. This is easy when they are little , but try it on a full grown dog !!!! this is the normal behavior of a wild pack. alpha always pens subordinates til they submit. some pups will tense up and try their darndest to get loose. Some will scream bloody murder. Its all a show to try to trick you into letting go. Remember you are dealing with a neo. this breed has potential to be quit an agressive and rude dog if not shown pack rule from the beginning. Some neos never show these problems, some will let you see it early on(thank god for those) , and some wait til they are big bad and strong as heck to push the agenda. At the later of the 3 its a tough road ahead for the dog and family. Just thank god you got it while you still can easily work with it. And remember some of the other folks here have other ways of working on this. Go with what you feel like you are able to do Confidently! Your confidence is critical, as the dog will pick up on it fast.

 

[excelrn]

Thank you for your advice. Although I had never heard of NILIF, I've pretty much been following that philosophy. Astrid needs to follow a command before she does just about anything: she sits before coming inside or going outside, she stays before coming out of her crate, she sits or goes down before getting her bowl of food, and we practice other commands during play/exercise times and with treats.

From what I've read here and other places, I think this was an instance of Astrid growing and trying to assert herself to determine her place. She "won" that night, just because I wasn't really ready for it, but that was the last time. I haven't given her another chance to do that with me, but she's tried it with my daughter after she was unsuccessful with me. My daughter says she put Astrid in her place, so I'm waiting to see what the results are.

How long does this testing phase generally last? Is she going to test every member of the house?

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Like people it depends on the dog. Some lose interest while others test the entire life. She is going to "test" family members and others in some way. Just be aware.

 

[Cody]

Just wondering how much research you did on Neo Mastiffs prior to getting Astrid.
Neo's are NOT gentle giants that love everyone and are marshmallow dogs. They are a dominant guardian breed, who require a strong owner who will put in the work and leadership.
In your case my dog would have had a "meeting with God" correction. Backing down from a young Neo is dangerous, even after getting bit, you can not back down.
You need to have her leashed at all times in the house, only let her have things when YOU decide she can.
I also HIGHLY suggest getting a trainer who is familiar with dominant breeds to come into your home and work with you. Having that situation while young is one thing, but a full grown Neo is an entirely different story.

 

[masteneo]

Exactly , Cody!

 

[excelrn]

The marshmallow comment was not in reference to a Mastiff. I did research, and I still, currently, talk to people who refer to their Neos as gentle giants, and a couple who have encouraged me to hold out with Astrid, because she will mellow into a gentle giant as an adult. I obviously didn't do enough research. I think too much of my research was about the health and nutrition issues, and about Mastiffs in general, without enough detail about different types of temperament. I don't think I realized that there are breeds in which "stranger danger" is considered a desired quality. I thought that type of thing was all training. I was prepared to do a lot of intense socializing and to start puppy obedience classes immediately. And I expected some dominance testing, which was quite a bit of the first month she was here, but I didn't know there would be repeats of this phase. Since the night that prompted my first post, I haven't backed down from Astrid about anything. I don't think I backed down from her before that night, either. I was just surprised by her behavior that night, without any obvious reason, on top of the history of my other dogs. I had thoughts of rabies or other problems. I have gone on to read this site and others every night since then, to learn more so I will know more about what to expect and how to deal with it. I think I have done a lot of things "right" with Astrid's training, even if I wasn't doing it because she's a Neo. Masteneo talks about grabbing the scruff of the neck and pinning to the floor....I've grabbed her by the scruff and either not let her move, or put her in time out in her crate, but haven't had to pin her (should have that night). My daughter, however..."this is the normal behavior of a wild pack. alpha always pens subordinates til they submit. some pups will tense up and try their darndest to get loose. Some will scream bloody murder. Its all a show to try to trick you into letting go."...ya, she's had to go through the whole scenario with Astrid before Astrid submits.

The kicker, though, is that I'm probably going to have to find a new home for her, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with this topic! We have another dog, a (literally) stupid Pug that turns 4 in March. She instigates fights with Astrid as soon as she sees her. I posted about this already, see the thread "Boerboel and Pug Fighting - Advice please" by Pakka. I would prefer to keep Astrid, as I am really not all that attached to the Pug, but my daughter has had several severe losses this year, and since I do care about her, and she is attached to the brainless wonder.....the Pug gets to stay. All of the training issues and the research have made me very aware that I need to be extremely careful about who adopts Astrid. Her new people will know that she is not a marshmallow, and she needs a leader.

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Probably best to rehome her with someone that has experience with a dominant breed. Anyone who refers to Neos as "gentle giants" I would RUN away from. IMO its shows that they know next nothing about the breed and do more harm than good. Personally I despise the term "gentle giants" as it gives people ground to throw common sense out the window.

 

[Rugers-Kris]

I agree with DD and I am sorry that you are going through this but it sounds like it may be better for all involved to rehome her as long as you are able to find someone that knows what they are getting and can handle her. Good Luck for your search for a forever home for your baby.

DD, I hate the term "Gentle Giants" as well and I have an EM.....It implies something that is not neccessarily true. Ruger is indeed a "Gentle Giant" with his family but certainly not with others. These are Guardians (Even EM's which are normally the softer of the breed) and that should be stressed to people looking into owning one.

 

[Smart_Family]

I agree with DD and I am sorry that you are going through this but it sounds like it may be better for all involved to rehome her as long as you are able to find someone that knows what they are getting and can handle her. Good Luck for your search for a forever home for your baby.

DD, I hate the term "Gentle Giants" as well and I have an EM.....It implies something that is not neccessarily true. Ruger is indeed a "Gentle Giant" with his family but certainly not with others. These are Guardians (Even EM's which are normally the softer of the breed) and that should be stressed to people looking into owning one.

:clap2:

 

[Jeri]

It's a shame to hear all this. My Neo is a year old, and while I won't call him a "gentle giant," he's turning into a very nice young man. The once or twice that he's guarded something from me, I've used the drop it/leave it and it's worked fine. He's not a shy boy by any means and will test your patience to the end. But that being said, he lives with 5 other tiny dogs, and while once in a while he'll get a little rough with them, he's never tried to actually hurt any of them.

There has been only one time that he's growled at me when I touched his food while he's eating. I made him stop, sit wait, then continue to eat while I play with the food in his bowl. That was only once. He loves all people unless you raise your voice at me, and even then he'll insert himself between me and the voice raiser and stare at you like, "you might want to step back." In the right hands, however, Neos are wonderful dogs. But if re-homing is what is needed, I completely understand. This giants just aren't for every person or every home. You have to do what is best and safest for yourself, your family, and the animal. Best of luck to you!

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

I agree with DD and I am sorry that you are going through this but it sounds like it may be better for all involved to rehome her as long as you are able to find someone that knows what they are getting and can handle her. Good Luck for your search for a forever home for your baby.

DD, I hate the term "Gentle Giants" as well and I have an EM.....It implies something that is not neccessarily true. Ruger is indeed a "Gentle Giant" with his family but certainly not with others. These are Guardians (Even EM's which are normally the softer of the breed) and that should be stressed to people looking into owning one.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[excelrn]

It's a shame to hear all this. My Neo is a year old, and while I won't call him a "gentle giant," he's turning into a very nice young man. The once or twice that he's guarded something from me, I've used the drop it/leave it and it's worked fine. He's not a shy boy by any means and will test your patience to the end. But that being said, he lives with 5 other tiny dogs, and while once in a while he'll get a little rough with them, he's never tried to actually hurt any of them.

Astrid hasn't tried to hurt our other dog, it's our other dog- a 12lb Pug- that attacks Astrid. Astrid wants to play. She'll stretch out on the floor to get to the Pug's level and bark at her, or put a paw on her, but the Pug goes crazy!!
I believe Astrid is going to be a great dog- we just have to get through the puppy stage with the correct training and behaviors- but I would never classify her as a gentle giant.

 

[jcook]

I went to a dog trainer who adopted an aggressive neo with the intent of rehabilitating the dog. She told me that "Beast" was doing really well and asked if Beast could meet Stella (3.5 month old CC). Beast came outside and immediately tried to bite Stella's face off. She described Beast as a gentle giant.... needless to say i never went back to her. She also told me that typically when you get a CC's ears cropped then don't stand, they just lay on the head forever(at the time Stella's ears weren't standing). I was like lady, do you really think all these people would crop their CC's ears if was almost guaranteed they wouldnt stand?? This was a dog trainer who thought she knew all about Mastiffs lol. So I guess the moral of the story is not everyones advice on mastiffs is accurate. the more research you do though you will be able to weed through the inaccurate info.

Sorry you have to give your pup up. I can only imagine how hard that is. Hopefully things will work out better with you next mastiff

 

[Kate Williams]

I had a trainer tell me that Hank would never train unless I neutered him. Needless to say I kept his balls and dropped the trainer. Thankfully I was never misled on the "gentle giant" crap. Hank can be very dominant and stubborn so he's a lot of work. If I weren't home 24/7 we could never own him. Good luck finding a good home. The right person is out there.

 

[excelrn]

After some intense conversations in the household, and discussions with a local trainer, combined with info from here and other sites, my family has agreed to commit to all of us being involved in training Astrid and Lyssa (the Pug), not just me, understanding that she needs to know we are the leaders, and this will involve training a bit different than we're used to. I think they understand that this training can't just be done by one person and still be effective for the whole household.

We've had progress on the resource guarding. I've mentioned before that Astrid likes to spill her food, so that she can search for it. At one point I felt she spilled too much, so started picking up some of the extra. Astrid growled and turned her head at me, baring her teeth. I grabbed her by the scruff/collar, and put her in time out. I decided it was a good time to work on some behavior rehab, too. The goal: once crate is opened, to stay in the crate by command until I've walked over to the food, picked some up, and walked back to give it to her as reward for staying, then releasing her to come out of her crate and return to eating the food that was spilled on the floor, with my hands in the food. Any growling/baring of teeth led to another time out and starting over. Attempt #1: took 2 tries to stay long enough, then a repeat of the above behavior that led to the timeout to begin with. Attempt #2: stayed on command and watched me get food, took much longer for her to start growling. Attempt #3: stayed on command, ate all of the food without growling at me, plus additional from the bowl while I put my hand in it. I had been replenishing the food on the floor so that it stayed about the same amount.
This evening I played in her food as she ate, without any growling behavior. Yay for learning!

We moved Lyssa's crate (typically only used when we go camping, as Lyssa usually sleeps with my daughter) into the same room with Astrid and have been working on desensitizing. I can see some improvement. But the light bulb also came on for us today! Since being placed in the same room, Lyssa has started barking at Astrid when she is playing too close to her crate. I was playing tug with Astrid (when playing tug, Astrid typically grunts and growls with effort, as she tugs me across the room), NOT near Lyssa's crate, when Lyssa started going crazy again! I think Lyssa has been trying to protect us from Astrid! I started talking to Lyssa, telling her "Quiet" (it's the command we've been using to stop the inappropriate barking) and that it was okay, while continuing to play with Astrid. Lyssa quieted, but continued to watch us.

I'm pleased with the progress we've made so far. Hopefully we will be able to keep finding ways to train them to have the behaviors we want them to have.

 

[masteneo]

GOOD! man i was thinking i was going for a drive for a new dog. thank goodness this pup landed in your home. You guys are going to turn her into the love of your lifes. She found one of those homes that can make it happen. just a side note. at our house, we tend to instigate the situations that cause resource gaurding so that we can address the situation in controlled manner on our terms. Just a thought.

 

[excelrn]

Masteneo, that would've been a long drive!! I live in AK....it's an effort, but I'll stay away from the AK-TX jokes,

Thanks for all the support!