I'm going to get a professional behaviorist.

[broccolini]

So you see a dog and person coming what do you do? How are you trying to correct her, do you give her a command like sit or no etc? Do you pull her back or do you give a correction to the side? Makes a big difference in which way you are holding the leash and how and when the correction is given. You also asked about training without praise or treats or harsh corrections, what do you think is a harsh correction?

When we are walking, I'll put her on the side opposite the approaching dog. I'll tell her 'leave it' and give her a sharp leash correction to the side as soon as soon I see her focusing too much on the other dog. Does that sound like what I should be doing? That generally works well and we can keep moving without too much drama. Making her sit does not work as well.

I try to find people walking dogs and follow them so she can get used to being near dogs and not having a negative reaction. She's fine following dogs. If there are other dogs in the pet store, I'll circle her around the outside isles and put her in a sit where she can see the dog. Again, just so she can practice being near a dog without reacting to it. The pet store people give her treats when she sits so that's some positive reinforcement for her. She will take treats from them in the store. Out on the sidewalk, she will not take them or will spit them out. So.

I think choking the dog is harsh. We use a martingale. I have it set to be uncomfortable but if I need to drag her away from something, it's not going to cut off her air. We do have to stop a lot and reposition it so it's high enough to be effective. She's pretty furry. I've tried a prong, it makes her worse. I mean, she can't pull toward the dog but her aggression level goes way up.

If she learns to ignore the dogs while we are up and moving, will that translate to ignoring them when we are sitting or standing still? Should I do something different if we are sitting down?

Is it enough for her to ignore them even though she still hates them? I'm really interested in why she acts the way she does.

 

[Hector]

When we are walking, I'll put her on the side opposite the approaching dog. I'll tell her 'leave it' and give her a sharp leash correction to the side as soon as soon I see her focusing too much on the other dog. Does that sound like what I should be doing? That generally works well and we can keep moving without too much drama. Making her sit does not work as well.

I try to find people walking dogs and follow them so she can get used to being near dogs and not having a negative reaction. She's fine following dogs. If there are other dogs in the pet store, I'll circle her around the outside isles and put her in a sit where she can see the dog. Again, just so she can practice being near a dog without reacting to it. The pet store people give her treats when she sits so that's some positive reinforcement for her. She will take treats from them in the store. Out on the sidewalk, she will not take them or will spit them out. So.

I think choking the dog is harsh. We use a martingale. I have it set to be uncomfortable but if I need to drag her away from something, it's not going to cut off her air. We do have to stop a lot and reposition it so it's high enough to be effective. She's pretty furry. I've tried a prong, it makes her worse. I mean, she can't pull toward the dog but her aggression level goes way up.

If she learns to ignore the dogs while we are up and moving, will that translate to ignoring them when we are sitting or standing still? Should I do something different if we are sitting down?

Is it enough for her to ignore them even though she still hates them? I'm really interested in why she acts the way she does.

I think you might be doing it right, but it's hard to tell not actually seeing it. Is the leash slack after a correction? You have to snap her out of it when she's at a low level state like a 1 or a 2 and not at a 7 or 8 and you mentioned earlier that she goes from 0-60 pretty quick. The hard part is knowing when she's still at 1 or 2 before escalating to a level where she lashes out and it won't be easy since she escalates really quick.

Yes choking a dog is harsh, but you don't choke the dog when you give a correction otherwise you are doing it wrong.

Have a look at this video:

[video=youtube;U0nbZZsQUGM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0nbZZsQUGM[/video]

 

[broccolini]

I wouldnt think you would be afraid of the 6lb boston lol but you probably are tensing up because of the reaction your dog is going to give you, your already continplating her reaction of trying to attack the other dog, you have been conditioned to accept this reaction and you dont like it.

Yes, I do anticipate her reacting badly but I try to pretend she's going to be perfect. Does that make sense. I make sure she's on a short leash and I have a good grip on it but I don't pull it tight until she gives me a reason to correct her.

Sometimes we go to the school and there are some off-leash dogs. One of them she loves. If there are others, I'll keep her on a slack long line so the dogs can approach but I can still control her. After acting all dominate for a minute or two, she'll be done with it and play quite well. Out on the street, she only has enough time for all her dominate posturing. I think with most of the dogs, she would be fine with them. I want to eliminate the initial posturing if possible.

She's only ever gotten into a fight with a husky that wasn't putting up with her attitude. And even that wasn't all that bad. Neither of them were hurt and I was able to get her leashed pretty easily.

 

[Hector]

If she learns to ignore the dogs while we are up and moving, will that translate to ignoring them when we are sitting or standing still? Should I do something different if we are sitting down?

Is it enough for her to ignore them even though she still hates them? I'm really interested in why she acts the way she does.

Yes it can translate from moving to sitting. It all depends on how you handle the situation. Yes, a dog can hate other dogs and still ignore them. The goal is for the dog to look to the handler for direction and when they do that they will be less likely to lash out. Built up excitement and frustration will translate into aggression so the key is starting out calm and keeping the dog calm on a walk and knowing when to use corrections OR engagement exercises so she doesn't focus on things you don't want her focusing on. Do she like any personal play like getting pushed or have her jowls messed with or tag ?

 

[broccolini]

I think you might be doing it right, but it's hard to tell not actually seeing it. Is the leash slack after a correction? You have to snap her out of it when she's at a low level state like a 1 or a 2 and not at a 7 or 8 and you mentioned earlier that she goes from 0-60 pretty quick. The hard part is knowing when she's still at 1 or 2 before escalating to a level where she lashes out and it won't be easy since she escalates really quick.

I try and make sure to correct her as soon as I see her focusing on another dog. She's pretty subtle though so it's possible I'm missing earlier clues.

Sometimes the leash is slack after a correction, sometimes she's too worked up and I have to drag her away. Am I not giving her a strong enough correction if that happens or is my timing wrong?

It's hard for me to evaluate everything I'm doing and everything she's doing. I understand, academically, what should work but having a third party will be really helpful to put it all into practice.

Oh, and thanks to all of you for the advice and input. It would be nice if you all lived in my neighborhood so you could observe us.

 

[broccolini]

The goal is for the dog to look to the handler for direction and when they do that they will be less likely to lash out. Built up excitement and frustration will translate into aggression so the key is starting out calm and keeping the dog calm on a walk and knowing when to use corrections OR engagement exercises so she doesn't focus on things you don't want her focusing on. Do she like any personal play like getting pushed or have her jowls messed with or tag ?

She will look to me if we see strange things on our walks. And I'll catching her looking up at me occasionally for reasons I'm not sure of. Like she's just checking in with me.

There is no redirecting a TM once they decide they need to watch something. I'm not exaggerating about that. Dragging her away is my only option once she gets fixated on something if I don't catch it early enough.

 

[Ronin]

When we are walking, I'll put her on the side opposite the approaching dog. I'll tell her 'leave it' and give her a sharp leash correction to the side as soon as soon I see her focusing too much on the other dog. Does that sound like what I should be doing? That generally works well and we can keep moving without too much drama. Making her sit does not work as well.

I try to find people walking dogs and follow them so she can get used to being near dogs and not having a negative reaction. She's fine following dogs. If there are other dogs in the pet store, I'll circle her around the outside isles and put her in a sit where she can see the dog. Again, just so she can practice being near a dog without reacting to it. The pet store people give her treats when she sits so that's some positive reinforcement for her. She will take treats from them in the store. Out on the sidewalk, she will not take them or will spit them out. So.

I think choking the dog is harsh. We use a martingale. I have it set to be uncomfortable but if I need to drag her away from something, it's not going to cut off her air. We do have to stop a lot and reposition it so it's high enough to be effective. She's pretty furry. I've tried a prong, it makes her worse. I mean, she can't pull toward the dog but her aggression level goes way up.

If she learns to ignore the dogs while we are up and moving, will that translate to ignoring them when we are sitting or standing still? Should I do something different if we are sitting down?

Is it enough for her to ignore them even though she still hates them? I'm really interested in why she acts the way she does.

I think we just identified an area for improvement. Your correction method isn't cutting it. In regards to you "choking"...you will never choke the dog if you use the "SLIP" collar correctly. That is the correct term for that type of collar...people call it a "choke" collar which automatically gives it a negative label. That will translate in you not using it correctly or at all because you don't want to hurt your dog...understandable. However, first of all, the proper way to correct with the slip collar is quick sharp pops in the OPPOSITE direction the dog is heading. The collar should simply pop and immediately release. Secondly, one thing most don't realize is the dogs neck is the strongest and toughest part of their body. Of course if you tried the same thing to a human, there would be major injury or even death...this is not the case with a dog. If you feel you are using the collar correctly with no effect, you are NOT using it correctly. It will get ANY dogs attention if used correctly, I don't care how big it is. I've seen old ladies at my club correcting large bullmastiff a effectively. One of them showed me a technique with the collar that I guarantee will be effective. Let the collar ride high on the dogs neck just below the ears. When time to correct with the quick pop, you will notice a huge difference in the attention you get...the dog will correct him/herself! And of course, always follow with praise once the dog does correct him/herself.

If this isn't the problem either, I couldn't help you unless I were to see it for myself. You can go with a "professional", but who is the professional? Is it Cesar Milan or is it the neighborhood dog walker? Even if it's Cesar Milan, he won't tell you much different than these people have told you here. It's all about your timing and application of correction and your timing and application of praise. I'm a firm believer of "KISS", sometimes overthinking it will work against you AND your dog. I really do wish you the best of luck.

 

[Ronin]

I think we just identified an area for improvement. Your correction method isn't cutting it. In regards to you "choking"...you will never choke the dog if you use the "SLIP" collar correctly. That is the correct term for that type of collar...people call it a "choke" collar which automatically gives it a negative label. That will translate in you not using it correctly or at all because you don't want to hurt your dog...understandable. However, first of all, the proper way to correct with the slip collar is quick sharp pops in the OPPOSITE direction the dog is heading. The collar should simply pop and immediately release. Secondly, one thing most don't realize is the dogs neck is the strongest and toughest part of their body. Of course if you tried the same thing to a human, there would be major injury or even death...this is not the case with a dog. If you feel you are using the collar correctly with no effect, you are NOT using it correctly. It will get ANY dogs attention if used correctly, I don't care how big it is. I've seen old ladies at my club correcting large bullmastiff a effectively. One of them showed me a technique with the collar that I guarantee will be effective. Let the collar ride high on the dogs neck just below the ears. When time to correct with the quick pop, you will notice a huge difference in the attention you get...the dog will correct him/herself! And of course, always follow with praise once the dog does correct him/herself.

If this isn't the problem either, I couldn't help you unless I were to see it for myself. You can go with a "professional", but who is the professional? Is it Cesar Milan or is it the neighborhood dog walker? Even if it's Cesar Milan, he won't tell you much different than these people have told you here. It's all about your timing and application of correction and your timing and application of praise. I'm a firm believer of "KISS", sometimes overthinking it will work against you AND your dog. I really do wish you the best of luck.

BTW, by "old ladies" I mean oooold ladies. 60s and 70s, lucky if they're 100 lbs...I sh** you not. If they can do it effectively, anyone can...it's more about your state of mind than anything else...

 

[Ronin]

BTW, by "old ladies" I mean oooold ladies. 60s and 70s, lucky if they're 100 lbs...I sh** you not. If they can do it effectively, anyone can...it's more about your state of mind than anything else...

Hahaha...I swear to God that I just watched the video posted by Hector and didn't plagiarize it with my post. But that was my point with the "professional" comment and how they will tell you the same thing we are telling you here...he said almost word for word what I was saying in this post. Only difference is that was a prong collar, not a slip collar. I promise you that if done correctly, you do NOT need a prong collar. A slip collar is enough. Oh yeah, and just one more note...you need to make sure the collar is on correctly as well so that it will release properly. With dog facing you, form letter "P" with the collar and slip it on...simple. Ok, I'm done with my comment now...lol

 

[ruthcatrin]

There is no redirecting a TM once they decide they need to watch something. I'm not exaggerating about that. Dragging her away is my only option once she gets fixated on something if I don't catch it early enough.

Yup, and the challenge is to catch it early enough, thats where an outside observer may very well make a difference all by itself. Assuming she'll DO it infront of an observer.....which might be the challenge!

If you feel you are using the collar correctly with no effect, you are NOT using it correctly. It will get ANY dogs attention if used correctly, I don't care how big it is.

There are dogs for whom a slip/choke collar doesn't work, Apollo's one of them. He doesn't care about it tightening on his neck, sharp correction or not (and yes it was on him correctly), he just keeps right on going. On the other hand the prong works perfectly for him.

 

[broccolini]

There are dogs for whom a slip/choke collar doesn't work, Apollo's one of them. He doesn't care about it tightening on his neck, sharp correction or not (and yes it was on him correctly), he just keeps right on going. On the other hand the prong works perfectly for him.

We had one trainer try a choke collar on Athena, it didn't go well. And I don't want to ratchet up the level of corrections if I'm part of the problem. It seems unfair. Also, since the prong makes her more aggressive, I suspect the slip chain will do the same.

I don't doubt that I could eventually get her to comply by using more and more force. That's just not what I want to do. Especially before I've exhausted any other methods. I'm hoping a behaviorist will have some better insight into the reason she acts out and maybe have some more creative ideas about how to fix it.

 

[Ronin]

Yup, and the challenge is to catch it early enough, thats where an outside observer may very well make a difference all by itself. Assuming she'll DO it infront of an observer.....which might be the challenge!




There are dogs for whom a slip/choke collar doesn't work, Apollo's one of them. He doesn't care about it tightening on his neck, sharp correction or not (and yes it was on him correctly), he just keeps right on going. On the other hand the prong works perfectly for him.

I guess there could be exceptions...BUT I have seen others with very large dogs who insist it doesn't work come to the training club, the instructor takes the lead, does the correction properly and guess what...that dog perks up, gives the instructor it's full attention and all of a sudden is glued to her left leg in the heel position....yes I said "her". The instructor was a female. I swear, just try it with the collar up high on the neck and below the ears). Also, the thinner chain links tend to be slightly more effective.

 

[Ronin]

We had one trainer try a choke collar on Athena, it didn't go well. And I don't want to ratchet up the level of corrections if I'm part of the problem. It seems unfair. Also, since the prong makes her more aggressive, I suspect the slip chain will do the same.

I don't doubt that I could eventually get her to comply by using more and more force. That's just not what I want to do. Especially before I've exhausted any other methods. I'm hoping a behaviorist will have some better insight into the reason she acts out and maybe have some more creative ideas about how to fix it.

Look, nobody wants to hurt their dog...that being said, you absolutely NEED to meet force WITH force. That is exactly what you are doing anyway, when you are desperately trying to hold her back...you are applying force, however, that type of force is INEFFECTIVE and the dog WILL win because you are hesitant and don't want to hurt your dog...the dog will NEVER learn that way. I am NOT saying to hurt your dog...I'm saying to learn how to correct your dog properly WITHOUT hurting her or she may end up hurting someone else or another dog. Anyway, I've said my piece. Not much more I can say...you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I hope it works out.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I guess there could be exceptions...BUT I have seen others with very large dogs who insist it doesn't work come to the training club, the instructor takes the lead, does the correction properly and guess what...that dog perks up, gives the instructor it's full attention and all of a sudden is glued to her left leg in the heel position....yes I said "her". The instructor was a female. I swear, just try it with the collar up high on the neck and below the ears). Also, the thinner chain links tend to be slightly more effective.

yup, but nope, IF you get Apollo's attention that way he'll just stand there and look at you, trust me, we went round and round in virtual circles

 

[ruthcatrin]

Look, nobody wants to hurt their dog...that being said, you absolutely NEED to meet force WITH force. That is exactly what you are doing anyway, when you are desperately trying to hold her back...you are applying force, however, that type of force is INEFFECTIVE and the dog WILL win because you are hesitant and don't want to hurt your dog...the dog will NEVER learn that way. I am NOT saying to hurt your dog...I'm saying to learn how to correct your dog properly WITHOUT hurting her or she may end up hurting someone else or another dog. Anyway, I've said my piece. Not much more I can say...you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I hope it works out.

I don't know if you meant that the way I took it, but I took that as a put down. "you're gonna do what you're gonna do"....um yah, she's getting professional help, so you can stop being rude about it

She's saying that if a stronger correction is required then thats fine, but she wants someone who can observe the dog with her to ensure that a) that she's not part of the problem (something EVERY dog owner should do when there's an on-going problem) and b) to make sure that the correction is properly timed if it IS needed and c) try to get to root cause of the problem because if it IS dog aggression all the corrections in the world isn't going to FIX it and so it needs to be known

 

[Ronin]

I don't know if you meant that the way I took it, but I took that as a put down. "you're gonna do what you're gonna do"....um yah, she's getting professional help, so you can stop being rude about it

She's saying that if a stronger correction is required then thats fine, but she wants someone who can observe the dog with her to ensure that a) that she's not part of the problem (something EVERY dog owner should do when there's an on-going problem) and b) to make sure that the correction is properly timed if it IS needed and c) try to get to root cause of the problem because if it IS dog aggression all the corrections in the world isn't going to FIX it and so it needs to be known

Not being rude at all...I commend her for looking for help. Tell me how me trying to help is being rude??? I'm not the one getting hostile here, and I'm not here to argue, I'm here to help and to learn...it is a non stop learning process for everyone, but in order to do that, people need to keep an open mind and listen to people with experience in the area being discussed. Otherwise, why be here to discuss it at all? And didn't I say I hope it works out? Yes I did...and I do.

 

[Ronin]

We had one trainer try a choke collar on Athena, it didn't go well. And I don't want to ratchet up the level of corrections if I'm part of the problem. It seems unfair. Also, since the prong makes her more aggressive, I suspect the slip chain will do the same.

I don't doubt that I could eventually get her to comply by using more and more force. That's just not what I want to do. Especially before I've exhausted any other methods. I'm hoping a behaviorist will have some better insight into the reason she acts out and maybe have some more creative ideas about how to fix it.

And one last thing and I'll leave it alone, I promise. The prong applies sharp stabbing pain to get compliance, the slip collar applies a quick jolt...it is not the same at all. I'd get aggravated too if there was a constant stabbing pressure anywhere on my body, however, a quick electric jolt(which is what I would compare a correct application of the slip collar to) would get my attention and I'd be like, "WTH was that?!"
I really hope you try it. Hopefully your professional can SHOW you what I've tried to explain. Sometimes demonstration is the only way to really see how it works. Again, good luck. And I HOPE IT WORKS OUT

 

[broccolini]

She's saying that if a stronger correction is required then thats fine, but she wants someone who can observe the dog with her to ensure that a) that she's not part of the problem (something EVERY dog owner should do when there's an on-going problem) and b) to make sure that the correction is properly timed if it IS needed and c) try to get to root cause of the problem because if it IS dog aggression all the corrections in the world isn't going to FIX it and so it needs to be known

Yes, exactly.

I don't think ratcheting up the level of force is appropriate in my situation. I understand that it would probably work. People trained dogs with force for a long time. I just think it's unfair at this point.

When my breeder brought his female puppy home, his male tried to kill her. He had to punch his dog in the head. Did that work? Absolutely. The dog never touched the puppy again. And at that point it was probably necessary to save the puppy. Was it fair? No. The whole situation was his own fault for underestimating how protective his male would be and for not introducing them on neutral ground. This is kind of how I feel about my situation right now.

And I'm not getting a professional trainer, I'm getting a behaviorist. There is a big difference. I understand how to train dogs. I've read lots of books, watched videos, gone to Schutzhund clubs, read training forums. I've had other dogs. I'm not a training expert or anything and I know there is always more to learn, but I'm not ignorant about training methods and dog behavior.

It's different when you're working with a dog that doesn't respond to any of the normal re-enforcers. She doesn't care about toys, treats, praise or my general opinion of her. And she will absolutely shut down if I go all brute force on her. I know this. I could do it anyway. Like I said, she's not that big.

I just think it's my responsibility to look into methods with more finesse before going down that road. And dog aggressive dogs(if that's her problem) tend to get more aggressive with aversive training methods. Even if you can control them, they internalize that and blame it on the other dog.

Anyway, I do appreciate all the input. And I thought others would be interested in my experience with a behaviorist vs a trainer. Especially the other TM owners who might benefit from hearing about any creative and effective training methods she might have.

 

[ruthcatrin]

And one last thing and I'll leave it alone, I promise. The prong applies sharp stabbing pain to get compliance, the slip collar applies a quick jolt...it is not the same at all. I'd get aggravated too if there was a constant stabbing pressure anywhere on my body, however, a quick electric jolt(which is what I would compare a correct application of the slip collar to) would get my attention and I'd be like, "WTH was that?!"
I really hope you try it. Hopefully your professional can SHOW you what I've tried to explain. Sometimes demonstration is the only way to really see how it works. Again, good luck. And I HOPE IT WORKS OUT

I think you need to do more research on prong collars if you think its a sharp stabbing pain when its used correctly.....Input's great, but when you're insisting that she's doing it wrong when what she stated is she's getting professional help I have a huge problem with your statement

 

[Ronin]

Yes, exactly.

I don't think ratcheting up the level of force is appropriate in my situation. I understand that it would probably work. People trained dogs with force for a long time. I just think it's unfair at this point.

When my breeder brought his female puppy home, his male tried to kill her. He had to punch his dog in the head. Did that work? Absolutely. The dog never touched the puppy again. And at that point it was probably necessary to save the puppy. Was it fair? No. The whole situation was his own fault for underestimating how protective his male would be and for not introducing them on neutral ground. This is kind of how I feel about my situation right now.

And I'm not getting a professional trainer, I'm getting a behaviorist. There is a big difference. I understand how to train dogs. I've read lots of books, watched videos, gone to Schutzhund clubs, read training forums. I've had other dogs. I'm not a training expert or anything and I know there is always more to learn, but I'm not ignorant about training methods and dog behavior.

It's different when you're working with a dog that doesn't respond to any of the normal re-enforcers. She doesn't care about toys, treats, praise or my general opinion of her. And she will absolutely shut down if I go all brute force on her. I know this. I could do it anyway. Like I said, she's not that big.

I just think it's my responsibility to look into methods with more finesse before going down that road. And dog aggressive dogs(if that's her problem) tend to get more aggressive with aversive training methods. Even if you can control them, they internalize that and blame it on the other dog.

Anyway, I do appreciate all the input. And I thought others would be interested in my experience with a behaviorist vs a trainer. Especially the other TM owners who might benefit from hearing about any creative and effective training methods she might have.

ray: