To Prong or Not to Prong

[ruthcatrin]

Its a facet of the "purely positive" training that has taken such a dominant (I laughed as I typed that word, if you've hung around the positive only folks much you'll understand why) place in training. ANYTHING that might in ANYWAY cause the dog discomfort or that isn't totally GOOD, is considered BAD/ABUSE!!!! in their training approach. You can't even suggest NILF training infront of some of these folks without getting screamed at (and I mean that literally).

It also has to do with the fact that used incorrectly a prong IS capable of causing serious damage to a dog. It doesn't require maliciousness either unfortunately. For example: NEVER NEVER EVER leave the prong on your dog when you're not actually USING it with a leash attached to it. I don't care of its just a 5 minute car ride, or because the standard (non-quick release) style prong is a pain to get on and off the dog. Do NOT EVER leave it on the dog. If enough force is applied to the collar (such as you getting in a car accident on that 5minute quick ride, or dogs playing roughly) the prongs do not have to be sharp to puncture the skin. And so the internet is full of pictures of dogs with damaged necks due to some idiots stupidity (someone on here even said that their TRAINER TOLD THEM to leave it on the dog!). Some of the pictures I have my doubts were actually caused by prongs, but some of them I can totally see it.

However, as that article laid out, used correctly, a prong is far far less likely to cause actual damage to the dog than most any other collar or no-pull device.

 

[MiraOCeti]

Well said ruthcatrin. If anyone is interested in a forum for balanced training, I recommend checking out Balanced Trainers and I am sure many of you are familiar with the work of Tyler Muto of K9 Connections, he has some great articles and videos.

 

[rcnd82]

I have successfully been using a prong on my 10 month old BM for a couple of weeks. At this point, simply putting it on him makes him more attentive and respectiveful. (I should add that I do not consider to him be an "alpha" type dog). And, we have only had one instance where he really pushed into it when he wanted to see a group of runners jogging down the street.

Just found out yesterday that the Canine Good Citizen class we have been attending while wearing the prong requires that he be tested without the prong so this week we will go back to the martingale at the end of each training session.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Just found out yesterday that the Canine Good Citizen class we have been attending while wearing the prong requires that he be tested without the prong so this week we will go back to the martingale at the end of each training session.

Most such tests have that requirement actually. I can understand why, though its frustrating for those of us who use them. Good luck!

 

[rcnd82]

Originally posted by Shiloh
Was looking on another thread wherein the OP uses a prong to work on behavioral issues, and it has the side effect of mitigating jumping while the prong is on. This is good news.

The prong has absolutely worked to keep Percy in a "sit" and stop all jumping while the prong is on his neck whether it is in the park or when people enter my home. Of course, I do need to be very conscious of the lease length. Now, once he is released, his head height with his shoulders at 26 inches can put his nose in undesired places for both men and women.....but he is just showing affection, at least that is what I tell people until I figure how to get that under control.

 

[Siloh]

I have successfully been using a prong on my 10 month old BM for a couple of weeks. At this point, simply putting it on him makes him more attentive and respectiveful. (I should add that I do not consider to him be an "alpha" type dog). And, we have only had one instance where he really pushed into it when he wanted to see a group of runners jogging down the street.

Just found out yesterday that the Canine Good Citizen class we have been attending while wearing the prong requires that he be tested without the prong so this week we will go back to the martingale at the end of each training session.

This is exactly what I'm annoyed with. You can take the CGC with a slip collar made of chain or nylon. But not a prong. But the chain slip--choke collar--is permissible and worse for the dog. WTH?


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Siloh]

Just placed my order with Gun Dog Supply. I couldn't find the exact collar Ruth recommended on Amazon for a better price.

I'm pretty darn excited to try this out. I have to get a video up of Hamlet walking but I'm not very good at taking video while working him. Hopefully one day my fianc* and I will be in the same place AND have a little free time so he can record a bit. I think I may need to invest in a vest for him though. He responds so much better with the backpack, but it's getting hot and I'm worried about the extra weight of the backpack overworking him and cannot use it as much as he would probably like. These days I just hold up the backpack and he sticks his head right through and goes into a sit for me to buckle and adjust it! Maybe the prong will similarly offer him a sense of purpose. We'll see!


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Kujo]

I got a prong collar in the last week...one of the quick release ones. I tried just about everything else first, with little to no success. I would get so frustrated on our walks, and I was worried Kujo would start associating my frustration with walking, because it happened pretty much every time, that we went on less and less walks. After an especially frustrating session I announced to my bf, "I've had it, I'm getting a prong collar"...like it was a dirty word.

I wish this was the first method I tried, in one short "getting to know the prong" session, and immediately followed by our first walk with it, I'm amazed at the difference. I'm being very careful to not use it as a correction, I'm saving that for an extreme situation. Instead I just plant my leash hand on my hip and let him jerk himself, he caught on very quickly! I'm now able to actually RELAX on our walks!

One question I have: we walked by the dog park we used to frequent when he was just a puppy, he got so excited that he pulled to the point where he actualy yelped!...does that suggest that I need to add a prong? This was the only time, and he did pull pretty hard. Should the prong ever get tight enough to cause pain? The last thing I want is for him to start fearing the prong collar, and I certainly don't want him in pain on our walks, I just want him to relax with me. He didn't protest at all the next time I put it on...so that's a good sign.

 

[ruthcatrin]

I find that some dogs seem to need that one harsh correction to really get it through their heads. If it other wise fits him right I'd not add a prong because that could make it to loose. The big question is does he do the same thing the next time you're over there?

 

[Smokeycat]

I find that some dogs seem to need that one harsh correction to really get it through their heads. If it other wise fits him right I'd not add a prong because that could make it to loose. The big question is does he do the same thing the next time you're over there?

This is what happened with Kryten. He had been walking on the prong really well until the first time he saw a cat across the street (he thinks a running cat wants to play). Unfortunately he saw the cat before I did and lunged so hard that he actually left the ground and did a 180. It was the last time he tried to lunge while wearing the prong. (I did make sure that he wasn't hurt.)

 

[Kujo]

I find that some dogs seem to need that one harsh correction to really get it through their heads. If it other wise fits him right I'd not add a prong because that could make it to loose. The big question is does he do the same thing the next time you're over there?

well he did pull a bit more around the dog park after that, but not hard enough to yelp. I haven't done the same walk yet, I went and got a foot tattoo that evening and that means no closed shoes for a week or so.

I'll make the same route in a couple days and see how he responds...I know it was just the excitement of being in that area, he really loves the dog park..especially when there's a pretty boxer bitch all alone in there for him to flirt with

 

[ruthcatrin]

well he did pull a bit more around the dog park after that, but not hard enough to yelp. I haven't done the same walk yet, I went and got a foot tattoo that evening and that means no closed shoes for a week or so.

Then you've still got some work to do with him. But now you CAN cause you can stop him from dragging you there. When he starts to pull towards the dog park (or other such) turn around and walk the other direction. When he stops pulling and behaves you turn around and head back towards it. And so on. Usual comment here about feeling stupid for walking in circles. But he doesn't get to even approach the dog park, much less play, till he's behaving politely (Always take the prong off for play time!!).

 

[Kujo]

Then you've still got some work to do with him. But now you CAN cause you can stop him from dragging you there. When he starts to pull towards the dog park (or other such) turn around and walk the other direction. When he stops pulling and behaves you turn around and head back towards it. And so on. Usual comment here about feeling stupid for walking in circles. But he doesn't get to even approach the dog park, much less play, till he's behaving politely (Always take the prong off for play time!!).

yup, that's the plan...just as soon as I can wear socks again

 

[ruthcatrin]

picky picky

 

[Kujo]

I'd rather walk...not limp

 

[Siloh]

The collar should arrive tomorrow. I'm planning on starting him on a dead ring. I'm interested if anyone has an opinion about starting on a dead vs live ring. Remember, 80% + of the time Hamlet only requires a verbal command or an exaggerated bounce/swing of my arm to correct him.

I also plan to continue using cues and treats to reinforce desirable behavior. I titrate the frequency of treats circumstantially, treating most the first and last few minutes of the walk as well as during high-level distractions (multiple people walking by, me stopping to talk to someone). I would say I treat at least two thirds of the time a direct command is given and followed through with, maybe one in four considering I use my follow/heel command often. Hopefully the prong will aid in giving fewer verbal commands, but I will probably still cue and treat for desirable behavior at a similar frequency (everything from ignoring an interesting scent to assuming the desired relaxed traveling posture) for a little while as I gain confidence in his attentiveness on the prong.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[ruthcatrin]

We started live ring, its a personal choice though. But remember, even on the live ring, if he's not pulling he won't feel it.

 

[Hector]

The collar should arrive tomorrow. I'm planning on starting him on a dead ring. I'm interested if anyone has an opinion about starting on a dead vs live ring. Remember, 80% + of the time Hamlet only requires a verbal command or an exaggerated bounce/swing of my arm to correct him.

I also plan to continue using cues and treats to reinforce desirable behavior. I titrate the frequency of treats circumstantially, treating most the first and last few minutes of the walk as well as during high-level distractions (multiple people walking by, me stopping to talk to someone). I would say I treat at least two thirds of the time a direct command is given and followed through with, maybe one in four considering I use my follow/heel command often. Hopefully the prong will aid in giving fewer verbal commands, but I will probably still cue and treat for desirable behavior at a similar frequency (everything from ignoring an interesting scent to assuming the desired relaxed traveling posture) for a little while as I gain confidence in his attentiveness on the prong.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

I found that if you are going to use corrections, then just stick with corrections. I also found that if you used treats with corrections, the dog would more likely to drift out of working mode (stay in heel). Treats becomes a distraction. Once the dog knows it has to stay in heel, then it will stay focused and distractions will not be a problem. Of course you have to correct the dog for looking anywhere else but ahead. I've tried both ways and ways in between and it was best to remain strict, that way I didn't have issues with skateboard reactivity (main problem for us).

 

[Siloh]

Okay, introduction and trial run was today! Both went swimmingly, although there were objections for the first minute or so to not getting treats. The whole walk was really excellent, and, as expected, he did seem more relaxed and happy the whole time.

HOWEVER, I have some concerns about sizing. There are only five prongs left on the collar as I have it now, and when I put it on, I place it in the right position and it seems QUITE snug to me, snug enough that I don't want to attempt to spin it around the way you're supposed to be able to. BUT it is loose enough that when Hamlet shakes his head, it slips more toward the middle of his neck than the top. I'm wondering if it's his crazy droopy neck wrinkles that are causing this effect of seeming super snug yet slipping. I'm unwilling to take out another prong--that would be too much. And it does have the desired effect on him. But I'm wondering if this is okay. I'm also afraid to spin it given all the wrinkles, but it doesn't seem too tight and will rotate if Ham gives it a good shake (this was about the only objection I got--some leash biting toward the end when he was getting tired).

Otherwise, two friggin thumbs up. This is better than sliced bread. He is more attentive, more relaxed, and he DIDN'T EVEN TRY to jump on anyone--all four paws were firmly planted on the ground, and he was just super relaxed and even laid down after being in his sit for a few minutes while I talked to my neighbor. The only time I needed to use more than one pop to get him to settle down was when he heard/saw a crying child come off the playground with her mom (Hamlet is aloof with kids and mildly alert but fairly calm when he hears them screaming). I thought it was fairly endearing. He was obviously concerned and whined a little bit, trying to get a closer look.

I'd like to get a picture of the fit for you but forgot while it was on, and I don't want to put it on if he isn't working.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark

 

[Siloh]

Oh PS we went with the live ring.


"Nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."
Hamlet Prince of Denmark