to spay or not to spay

[Joe Flynn]

What does a dog of this magnitude MEAN? A dog that's been allowed to misbehave? A dog that's not been taught what a toy is and isn't? A big dog? A mean dog? An "aggressive" dog? Pulling on your clothes is a very common puppy/adolescent behavior I've seen exhibited by 80% of the dogs I've owned. I've also had 100% of my dogs NOT do this behavior as adults. If every dog had structure and exercise, socialization, and leadership, they wouldn't exhibit so many behaviors people didn't want them to. Notice I didn't say training. You don't have to train a dog to sit, stay, shake paws, to behave. It's just easier to teach people to train their dogs in this fashion becuase it's the only way people understand. IMO IME sorry if I sound harsh, not intended that way. Just passionate =)

I'm not sure how you sound due to this being textual rather than verbal. I do not know what dogs you own or have owned. I do know that we are talking about a presa canario not an english mastiff. So when I say dog of this magnitude I mean exactly that. Other than the presa, I don't think you get bigger or badder in one package. There are bigger there are badder, but the presa is naturally big and bad. that is why people have them. I spend alot of time with my dogs, Lady is good for what she is, but let there be no mistake: These dogs are naturally killers. everything I do is to curb those DOMINANT instincts. I think it's funny how people are so quick to tell me nothing my dog is doing is dominant, and I need to learn how to teach my dog, but NO ONE will say what dominant behavior is. "sorry if I sound harsh, not intended that way. Just passionate =)" I love my dog(s) and am doing everything I can to learn so I can teach my wife how to handle Lady properly, but if my wife is having trouble I can't see how my kid will do better.... unless he takes after me I guess thanks for the input. keep it coming especially anything to do with what dominant behavior is and if you have any experience with spaying calming a dog down.

 

[Boxergirl]

I can't give you an example of dominant behavior with humans, because I don't believe that dogs try to dominate people. Dog-dog interaction is very different that dog-human interaction. The behaviors you are describing are adolescent, unmannerly, rude behaviors. Not dominance. A dog running through a door first is a rude dog that hasn't been taught not to do that, not a dominant dog. Adopting a policy of nothing in life is free (NILF), working on place, structured walks, impulse control - all of these things will help. Exercise, both mental and physical will help. Tiring a dog out mentally is often more important than tiring them out physically. Can you tell us what your daily routine is with Lady? How do you correct her when she exhibits behaviors you don't like? Honestly, you've already tried to rehome her without her doing anything suspect. Teaching impulse control is a long process that requires patience and likely the help of a good positive reinforcement trainer. If you are looking for your adolescent dog to be a model citizen quickly, then perhaps rehoming is the right choice, because that's not going to happen. I feel like Lady already has a few strikes against her in your eyes.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I can't give you an example of dominant behavior with humans, because I don't believe that dogs try to dominate people.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Other things I wanted to say here but thought would be better served in a thread of its own /\/\/\/\Bred to Behave Like - Mastiff Forum little about my expereince with dogs. I've personally owned over 100 dogs. From pure bred blue heelers that were trained to work, to mutts rescued from the interstate or national parks, to rottweilers, retired police GSD's, rat terriers, pit bulls, chihuahuas, and now english mastiffs. I've been literally attacked on a few occasions, bitten more times than I can count, and have trained 100% of all the dogs I've ever owned to behave in an acceptable manner. Even the ones coming from abusive backgrounds, resource guarders, truly aggressive behaviors (mostly fear aggression). I've never had a dog I couldn't help./\/\/\/\Chopping up a dogs sexual reproductive organs has little to no effect on learned behaviors and instinctual behaviors. I'm not a vet. I can agree that they may help curb some behaviors. Proper structure, leadership, training, knowledge of your breed, what they were bred for, and how to give them a proper outlet for those instincts will have a greater effect.

 

[Joe Flynn]

I"m not sure how to reply, or if i should just wait for other posts to reply to. the fact that neither of you think that dogs show dominance.... IDK that sounds kinda wacko.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I said I don't believe they show dominance to humans. I can absolutely point out dominant behaviors and postures all day long if you like. I've simply not seen them try and dominate humans. Joe Flynn we'd love to hear your opinions, and your replies. Calling us wacko for something that's been shown time and again, is hardly inspiring me to take your opinions seriously when/if you decide to share them.

 

[Joao M]

Joe Flynn.--- At the end of the day, the thread is pointless as regards keeping or not keeping the Presa. --- Either you and your wife feel safe keeping her with your newborn and she stays; or you don´t and she goes.--As simple as that.--A son is a son and what WE believe is needed for our sons safety always comes first (and second, and third...)--- So, the fact that I and other posters always felt safe having big dogs around my/our own children is totally irrelevant---.--However, IF you decide to keep the Presa, then it could be interesting to discuss "to spay or not to spay".--- I only do that to prevent unwanted breedin or when it is a medical issue; not to control temperament as I don´t believe in that.--I did not see diff between intact and spayed bitches I had in the past.--Othesr may think differently---BUT this discussion is only relevant after YOUR first decision is made: she stays or goes?

 

[Boxergirl]

Perhaps you would get more replies from different people if you posted this in the general mastiff forum - and link to this post maybe so people get a little more information on what has been suggested and what additional information you've given. It's okay if you think I'm wacko. I think it's wacko for people to believe that they have to make a show of eating in front of their dog first to show they are the alpha. Not saying you do that, just giving an example. Every behavior you have mentioned is something that has likely been reinforced in one way or another by the humans in Lady's life. Dogs do what works for them. Maybe you will find this an interesting read. Maybe not. https://www.animalhumanesociety.org/webfm/569

 

[Boxergirl]

Joao M is absolutely correct. First and foremost I am a mother and my children have always come first. Your child's safety should come first. As I said earlier, I actually feel that it may be in everyone's best interest if you did rehome her. Please, if you choose to relinquish her, go through a responsible rescue organization. They will evaluate her and address any behavioral issues she may have.

 

[Joe Flynn]

this is my thread, ill say what i like. i didnt say you sound wacko, but here u go: your comments sound wacko to me, sorry. you ca call black white, or red blue if you like, but these are dominant breed dogs.Below are some common behaviors dogs display when they believe they are above humans. Keep in mind that a dog does not have to display all of these behaviors to be in a dominant frame of mind. Sometimes an alpha dog will only display a few of the behaviors at random times, depending on what the dog decides it feels like doing at any given moment. Smarter dogs tend to challenge the pack order more than dogs of average or below-average intelligence.StubbornHeadstrong and willfulDemandingPushyBeggingPushing a toy into you or pawing in order to get you to play with themNudging you to be pettedSitting in high places, looking down on everythingGuarding a human from others approaching. People like to call it “protecting†but it's actually “claimingâ€â€”dog owns you.Barking or whining at humans which many owners consider "talking" (without a command to do so).High-pitched screams in protest of something dog does not wish to do.Jumping or putting their paws on humans (without a command to do so).Persistence about being on a particular piece of furniture when asked to stay off (dog owns it)Persistence about going in and out of doorways before humansPersistence about walking in front of humans while on a leadPersistence about getting through the doorway firstRefusing to walk on a lead (excludes untrained puppies, dogs with injuries or illnesses)Nipping at people's heels when they are leaving (dog did not give permission to leave)Not listening to known commandsDislikes people touching their foodStanding proud on a human lapPersistence about being on top, be it a lap or stepping on your footPersistence about where they sleep, i.e. on your pillowAnnoyance if disturbed while sleepingLikes to sleep on top of their humansLicking (giving kisses) in a determined and focused mannerCarrying themselves with a proud gait, head held highNot liking to be left alone and getting overly excited upon the human’s return (see Separation Anxiety in Dogs)

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

You are right. It's your thread. I'll leave you to it friend./\/\/\/\Boxergirl, I loved the article. Thanks. I Read it once myself then felt it was good enough to read aloud to my wife.

 

[Joe Flynn]

Joao M: I do have an in tact male, so i was going to spay her either way IF i keep her. You are correct. I need to make that decision, but it's not just mine to make. I am great with her, we have a healthy relationship. I am getting so much heat from my family for having her in the first place (fyi they're ignorant people). Now on here I feel like i'm getting attacked for wondering if the right thing to do is giver her up for the potential safety of my son and his potential friends. I can't even go on vacation b/c she gets such separation anxiety when i'm gone for more than 6 hours. She is a very high maintenance dog.

 

[Boxergirl]

I haven't seen anyone attack you and I'm sorry you feel that way. Have you considered any of the training ideas I presented? Whether you believe her behaviors are dominance based or not, NILF and impulse control great things to work on. Sometimes it's in the best interest of the dog to rehome them. That's not a jab at you. I have a very high maintenance dog myself. I also have family that believes I'm crazy for putting so much time into him. My children are grown now, so I have the time. You're just starting out with a young family. If you truly are afraid of what the future is going to bring, please contact a rescue as soon as possible. I worked rescue for a lot of years. Your situation is actually pretty common. The younger dogs are easier to place and also easier to work with if there are behavior problems that need to be addressed. I also encourage you to repost your concerns in the general mastiff forum or the training and behavior forum. Those get more traffic than the breed specific forums.

 

[Joe Flynn]

Boxergirl: I posted in the presa canario section b/c I am looking for breed specific information. Not general wisdom on idealistic dog ownership. I don't think you are wrong in concept. Situationally however, I believe it is important to have negative consequences to undesirable behavior, and seeing as dogs are pack animals there is an alpha (even in human social circles there is domiant/alpha). the human must be alpha or risk the dog biting. I do think that alot of people are not self aware enough to properly "alpha". I am not perfect, and I'm sure I have made some mistakes, But I research and know where I make them and modify my behavior. This however does not change the fact that lady is a DOMINANT/ALPHA natured dog. With the posed question still being (to owners of the more guardian natured K9), how comfortable are you with them around your kids/have you had issues and does spaying lower energy/aggression? It sounds like no, spaying does not affect mentality....

 

[Joe Flynn]

I haven't seen anyone attack you and I'm sorry you feel that way. Have you considered any of the training ideas I presented? Whether you believe her behaviors are dominance based or not, NILF and impulse control great things to work on. Sometimes it's in the best interest of the dog to rehome them. That's not a jab at you. I have a very high maintenance dog myself. I also have family that believes I'm crazy for putting so much time into him. My children are grown now, so I have the time. You're just starting out with a young family. If you truly are afraid of what the future is going to bring, please contact a rescue as soon as possible. I worked rescue for a lot of years. Your situation is actually pretty common. The younger dogs are easier to place and also easier to work with if there are behavior problems that need to be addressed. I also encourage you to repost your concerns in the general mastiff forum or the training and behavior forum. Those get more traffic than the breed specific forums.

Yes, thats what i'm trying to figure out. I'm not sure how to tag this to the other forum.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I'm sorry if something I said put you on the defensive. It wasn't meant as an attack or a jape. I truly only want to help people with what little experience and knowledge I may be able to offer. People are passionate about dogs. Thier own and others. Most users on this forum in my experiences are people being absolutely genuine and constructive as possible.

 

[Joe Flynn]

I'm sorry if something I said put you on the defensive. It wasn't meant as an attack or a jape. I truly only want to help people with what little experience and knowledge I may be able to offer. People are passionate about dogs. Thier own and others. Most users on this forum in my experiences are people being absolutely genuine and constructive as possible.

No problem, thanks for the input. I'm just a mess right now, in regards to what to do, I feel so torn. With most dog breeds I don't think i'd have this issue. Sure and EM is big (200 lb big) but a mistake with one might end with a bloody nose, or at worst a broken arm. With a Presa or Dogo or CC it could be life ending mistake.

 

[Joe Flynn]

I've been looking up Dominant behavior, this is from one of the first 3 I looked at. "Most of these answers are awful, at best. Dominance has nothing to do with size, aggression, or protection. If it has to do with another trait it would be territorial instinct. Dobies and GSD's are very protective, but not really dominant. Overall with other dogs, a pit may be, but with people most are not dominant, protective, or a aggressive. The presa canario is probably overall the most dominant breeds, in part because the breed is fairly old and has been geographically isolated and the dogs do what they were bred to do; operate alone on instinct more than any of the others mentioned, all of which I have owned or fostered. The akita or chow tend to be the more dominant of the more common breeds"

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I've been looking up Dominant behavior, this is from one of the first 3 I looked at. "Most of these answers are awful, at best. Dominance has nothing to do with size, aggression, or protection. If it has to do with another trait it would be territorial instinct. Dobies and GSD's are very protective, but not really dominant. Overall with other dogs, a pit may be, but with people most are not dominant, protective, or a aggressive. The presa canario is probably overall the most dominant breeds, in part because the breed is fairly old and has been geographically isolated and the dogs do what they were bred to do; operate alone on instinct more than any of the others mentioned, all of which I have owned or fostered. The akita or chow tend to be the more dominant of the more common breeds"

Depends on your definition of dominance. "Dominance is defined as a relationship between individual animals that is established by force/aggression and submission, to determine who has priority access to multiple resources such as food, preferred resting spots, and mates (Bernstein 1981; Drews 1993)."By that definition, "Most of these answers are awful, at best. Propensity to acquire resources, mating prioity, or the most comfortable spot, has nothing to do with size, aggression, or protection. If it has to do with another trait it would be territorial instinct. Dobies and GSD's are very protective, but not really apt to try and take the most comfortable spot in the house by force. Overall with other dogs, a pit may be, but with people most are not defending their right to mate, protective, or aggressive. The presa canario is probably overall the most likely breed to use aggression or force to get what they want, in part because the breed is fairly old and has been geographically isolated and the dogs do what they were bred to do; operate alone on instinct more than any of the others mentioned, all of which I have owned or fostered. The akita or chow tend to be the most likely to use aggression or force to sit on the couch."

 

[Boxergirl]

Just because you have what is considered a "dominant breed" doesn't necessarily mean that every undesirable behavior is an attempt to usurp your leadership. I honestly think you are too hung up on the word dominant. The behaviors you describe as problematic are not specific to your breed and there are many articles from certified applied animal behaviorists that will explain why they do not mean your dog is trying to dominate. The behaviors she is exhibiting right now, at this exact time, are things that you can work through. She isn't behaving any differently *right now* than any other adolescent dog that needs rules and boundaries. I understand you are concerned about the future. Unfortunately there's no way any of us can guess what her temperament will be like when she matures. Sometimes when they hit that magical age of 2 they change quite a bit. Sometimes they don't. If you are truly that concerned - or your family is that concerned - then I again encourage you to seek out a rescue organization now while she's still young.

 

[Joe Flynn]

Just because you have what is considered a "dominant breed" doesn't necessarily mean that every undesirable behavior is an attempt to usurp your leadership. I honestly think you are too hung up on the word dominant. The behaviors you describe as problematic are not specific to your breed and there are many articles from certified applied animal behaviorists that will explain why they do not mean your dog is trying to dominate. The behaviors she is exhibiting right now, at this exact time, are things that you can work through. She isn't behaving any differently *right now* than any other adolescent dog that needs rules and boundaries. I understand you are concerned about the future. Unfortunately there's no way any of us can guess what her temperament will be like when she matures. Sometimes when they hit that magical age of 2 they change quite a bit. Sometimes they don't. If you are truly that concerned - or your family is that concerned - then I again encourage you to seek out a rescue organization now while she's still young.

mam i do not have an issue with the word dominance, u do. every article i read uses the word. your being obsessive in your need to prove dogs are not dominant, which is just silly. Even allthingsmastff is going over board. You two need get over it and accept the word into your vocabulary. This is some information for you to help you accept the use of the word dominant: dom·i·nantˈdämənənt/Submitadjective: dominant1.most important, powerful, or influential."they are now in an even more dominant position in the market"synonyms: presiding, ruling, governing, controlling, commanding, ascendant, supreme, authoritativeantonyms: subservient, submissiveI hope this helps you understand what is meant when people use this word in the future.