to spay or not to spay

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I do not disagree with the way you defined it. We are stressing that the definition changes depending on context. Dominating the market is different than a dominant posture being exhibited by a canine. If there were more articles that stated 2+2=5, it would not make it true if in the doggie context 2+2=4. Does make any sense or no? Not trying to be derogatory or condescending. I just think it's important that myths be dispelled when it comes to our beloved 4 legged friends. We wouldn't be so adamant about it if it were not backed by more recent science than the previous "dominance" theory. More recent science = there aren't 100 million articles about it quite yet. It's our job to help spread the word. That's how I see it anyways, Boxergirl can speak for herself. I thank and appreciate her for that. Also, I enjoy sharing my opinion and why I'm so active on the forum. Prove me wrong, I'll try to prove I'm right lol.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

For me it's all in fun and good mental exercise. I used to believe the dominance theory years ago. The more I read into actual scientifically based research that's up to date. The more my opinions change and the more opinionated I become. It's a natural progression of my moral dog training scope if you will. I'd like to think that when we are here on the forums going "back and forth" over different subjects that we are either in a classroom environment where everyone is expected to be respectful and mind their manners. Or we are in a public place like a coffee shop and conversing like mature adults. I don't think of it as entering the ring and I have to pound my opinions into others heads. Though admittedly, I can put up a heck of a fight even if I'm wrong LOL

 

[Boxergirl]

I majored in English. I know what the definition of dominant is, but thank you for clarifying. What I should have added to my previous post is that I was hoping you would be able to look past the dominance aspect and see that the behaviors are common behaviors at this age to all breeds, not just those considered dominant breeds. I also tried to be as polite, helpful, and understanding as possible, but perhaps my words read differently. I truly wish you the best and hope things work out for you. If you would like help locating a trainer or a rescue in your area I would be glad to help.

 

[cinnamon roll]

Let me just say just because you own a certain breed and other's don't, doesn't mean they don't have experience with the behaviors you are describing.

We have extremely intelligent owners on here who can offer great advice,

Also we do not tolerate putting down our members.

It maybe your thread but you must follow the forum rules.

 

[Boxergirl]

I hope you know that I am being domineering and pretentious, I thank you for the days entertainment and further I hope you know that I can tell when she is being a puppy and what is standard behavior for dogs and when she is being bad. I can differentiate the behaviors. I have a good relationship with her... as long as i give her her daily jog. Thank you again and l will look more into this rainbow and unicorn training you 2 seem to be so sold on.

Bless your heart.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

It's only rainbow and unicorn to those that have a hard time understanding and/or accepting it. Look up cognitive dissonance. Honestly, you are correct about torquing, and attempting to change one's perception using such methods. I do and have contradicted myself. It's all part of the learning process and evolution of my personal dog training theory. I don't adopt one theory or the other. I learn what I can about ALL of them and apply what works for me and my dogs or the dogs that I work with. I like to think that instead of finding one theory and sticking to it no matter what because there is evidence that supports it. Each individual needs to make a decision on what's morally acceptable and what works best for them. I could tell you that to correct any bad behavior all you have to do is get an E-collar and correct it on the highest setting. That's more of a treating the symptom and not the disease approach IMO. I could tell you every time your dog shows "dominance" throw a "bonker" at it. All that's going to do is give you some exercise because after every time you throw it, you will have to walk over and pick it up lol. I could argue one side of the coin or the other but the truth is, I value you as a human, and I value the love that you have for your dog. I only give the advice that sounds best to me in my mind, based on my own experiences. You can choose to take it, leave it, or pick and choose bits and pieces that you like and dump the rest. Please don't get upset, that's totally counterproductive to our common goal (getting behavioral change in your dog).

 

[Joe Flynn]

It's only rainbow and unicorn to those that have a hard time understanding and/or accepting it. Look up cognitive dissonance. Honestly, you are correct about torquing, and attempting to change one's perception using such methods. I do and have contradicted myself. It's all part of the learning process and evolution of my personal dog training theory. I don't adopt one theory or the other. I learn what I can about ALL of them and apply what works for me and my dogs or the dogs that I work with. I like to think that instead of finding one theory and sticking to it no matter what because there is evidence that supports it. Each individual needs to make a decision on what's morally acceptable and what works best for them. I could tell you that to correct any bad behavior all you have to do is get an E-collar and correct it on the highest setting. That's more of a treating the symptom and not the disease approach IMO. I could tell you every time your dog shows "dominance" throw a "bonker" at it. All that's going to do is give you some exercise because after every time you throw it, you will have to walk over and pick it up lol. I could argue one side of the coin or the other but the truth is, I value you as a human, and I value the love that you have for your dog. I only give the advice that sounds best to me in my mind, based on my own experiences. You can choose to take it, leave it, or pick and choose bits and pieces that you like and dump the rest. Please don't get upset, that's totally counterproductive to our common goal (getting behavioral change in your dog).

Finally something reasonable that I can agree with!

 

[Joe Flynn]

Let me just say just because you own a certain breed and other's don't, doesn't mean they don't have experience with the behaviors you are describing. We have extremely intelligent owners on here who can offer great advice, Also we do not tolerate putting down our members. It maybe your thread but you must follow the forum rules.

What rules did I break? I see my comments are getting deleted. While I don't disagree with anything you've said in your comment. I must protest YOUR involvement. You are exacerbating the situation. As a moderator you are required to be un-bias. Deleting my comments is showing a bias to my point of view. Which is worse than anything I may or may not have said.

 

[Joe Flynn]

What rules did I break? I see my comments are getting deleted. While I don't disagree with anything you've said in your comment. I must protest YOUR involvement. You are exacerbating the situation. As a moderator you are required to be un-bias. Deleting my comments is showing a bias to my point of view. Which is worse than anything I may or may not have said.

Also EverythingEnglishMastiff created a separate thread (Bred to Behave Like - Mastiff Forum I quote"People get dogs with this preconceived notion that they will be x. Let me tell you something from experience. Dogs, are what you make them. Dogs are what you allow them to be. Dogs, as a species, will behave in the way that you reinforce. You reinforce knowingly or unknowingly. Everything a dog does is because you shaped them that way (by you I mean their humans). Sure just like humans their brains tick different, sure they can have mental illness like depression and anxiety. People that believe their dogs are straight aggressive killers and want nothing more than to misbehave, are doing a HUGE FUCKING DISSERVICE to the species and obviously have little to no understanding of how their minds work./\/\/\/\ It's been in my experience that dogs move on from traumatic episodes, much quicker and easier than humans. They are more willing to learn from and to work for their peers, than 99% of all human beings on Earth. Sure they do things for personal gain and what works best for them. They don't have emotions like greed, vengeance, spite, lust, so called "justice", all these negative things that swirl around in homo-sapiens heads./\/\/\/\ We try to apply our thought process to them because we cannot understand fully how their minds work. Short answer, MUCH BETTER than ours. They might not have the mental capacity to do long division. Their brains aren't developed enough to make the conscious decisions required to operate a charitable organization. They can however move on and not carry aroud the baggage that is their day to day life. Their past does effect them in a palpable way. Unlike many many humans, they are not defined by their past./\/\/\/\ If we were more like dogs the world would be a better place. If we could understand better how their minds work, we wouldn't kill as many dogs every year as we do. If we as humans were a better species, we'd use our brain power to help these dogs help us, what they were bred for. We wouldn't suffer from wars, and crime, and all the other SHIT that humans put those of their own species through every fuckin day. Abuse wouldn't be in our vocabulary. Did your mom ever tell you life is unfair? Life is unfair because, HUMANS MAKE IT THAT WAY. /endrantRead more: http://www.mastiff-forum.com/showthread.php/27510-Bred-to-Behave-Like-quot-X-quot#ixzz3qah7dSqu") after are initial disagreement, about the topic of our disagreement using profanity. It was directed at me seeing as they left a link to it on my thread. you have done nothing about this? and does that not negate all there comments? this is bogus. I'm didn't break any rule but cussing is breaking a rule! You moderator are out of line! I voter for a vote of no confidence in your leadership!

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Cussing isn't breaking a rule as far as I've read. Being disrespectful directly to someone in a public manner is. If I had said you are a blankety blank, I imagine my posts would also be deleted. I dunno, this is where i bow out and let the dust settle . Sorry man. mods will be mods. If you think my other post is bannable please report the post and the mods will be the judge.

 

[Smokeycat]

this is my thread, ill say what i like. i didnt say you sound wacko, but here u go: your comments sound wacko to me, sorry. you ca call black white, or red blue if you like, but these are dominant breed dogs.Below are some common behaviors dogs display when they believe they are above humans. Keep in mind that a dog does not have to display all of these behaviors to be in a dominant frame of mind. Sometimes an alpha dog will only display a few of the behaviors at random times, depending on what the dog decides it feels like doing at any given moment. Smarter dogs tend to challenge the pack order more than dogs of average or below-average intelligence.StubbornHeadstrong and willfulDemandingPushyBeggingPushing a toy into you or pawing in order to get you to play with themNudging you to be pettedSitting in high places, looking down on everythingGuarding a human from others approaching. People like to call it “protecting†but it's actually “claimingâ€â€”dog owns you.Barking or whining at humans which many owners consider "talking" (without a command to do so).High-pitched screams in protest of something dog does not wish to do.Jumping or putting their paws on humans (without a command to do so).Persistence about being on a particular piece of furniture when asked to stay off (dog owns it)Persistence about going in and out of doorways before humansPersistence about walking in front of humans while on a leadPersistence about getting through the doorway firstRefusing to walk on a lead (excludes untrained puppies, dogs with injuries or illnesses)Nipping at people's heels when they are leaving (dog did not give permission to leave)Not listening to known commandsDislikes people touching their foodStanding proud on a human lapPersistence about being on top, be it a lap or stepping on your footPersistence about where they sleep, i.e. on your pillowAnnoyance if disturbed while sleepingLikes to sleep on top of their humansLicking (giving kisses) in a determined and focused mannerCarrying themselves with a proud gait, head held highNot liking to be left alone and getting overly excited upon the human’s return (see Separation Anxiety in Dogs)

If all of these are what you consider dominate behaviors I'm not surprised that you consider her as a very dominant dog. Many of these behaviors are not dominant to me, they are rude and pushy but not a sign that the dog thinks or want to be 'in charge'. In fact I've always heard separation anxiety as more of a submissive or less confident dog issue.
Neither of my dogs are a breed 'known' as being a dominate breed nor are they either dominate or submisive but each has tried most of the behaviors that you listed. Training, mostly on impulse control, has stopped the ones I considered undesirable. Some I don't see why it would be considered a problem , such as carrying themselves with a proud carriage or gate, as it is more a sign of a confident dog.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

 

[Joe Flynn]

If all of these are what you consider dominate behaviors I'm not surprised that you consider her as a very dominant dog. Many of these behaviors are not dominant to me, they are rude and pushy but not a sign that the dog thinks or want to be 'in charge'. In fact I've always heard separation anxiety as more of a submissive or less confident dog issue. Neither of my dogs are a breed 'known' as being a dominate breed nor are they either dominate or submisive but each has tried most of the behaviors that you listed. Training, mostly on impulse control, has stopped the ones I considered undesirable. Some I don't see why it would be considered a problem , such as carrying themselves with a proud carriage or gate, as it is more a sign of a confident dog. Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk

I don't agree all these either. I copied and pasted a bit from the first article that came up about dominant behavior. I just thought it was funny that it mentioned the same things I had referred to as dominant behavior, that were previously contested as dominant behavior. Not that i'm right or there wrong, but it was the first article...

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I had suspected there was some copy pasting going on! lol

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I was wondering why all the periods were missing etc. I totally felt like you hadn't written the content yourself. It was one particular post. Anyways, Idk why I'm even still awake. It's WAY past my bedtime. I'll catch ya later. Thanks for good back and forth I enjoyed it.

 

[Joe Flynn]

I don't agree all these either. I copied and pasted a bit from the first article that came up about dominant behavior. I just thought it was funny that it mentioned the same things I had referred to as dominant behavior, that were previously contested as dominant behavior. Not that i'm right or there wrong, but it was the first article...

I would refer to a child as rude, disrespectful or pushy... although I could use the word dominant for a child too... they may not consciously understand why they do what they do but there are few base states all things evolve from.

 

[Joao M]

Joao M: I do have an in tact male, so i was going to spay her either way IF i keep her. You are correct. I need to make that decision, but it's not just mine to make. I am great with her, we have a healthy relationship. I am getting so much heat from my family for having her in the first place (fyi they're ignorant people). Now on here I feel like i'm getting attacked for wondering if the right thing to do is giver her up for the potential safety of my son and his potential friends. I can't even go on vacation b/c she gets such separation anxiety when i'm gone for more than 6 hours. She is a very high maintenance dog.

Joe Flynn,---If that is the situation I believe you should rehome her.--I understand what you mean with "dominance" and will not go through the concept (English is my second language so I have a good excuse, anyway..). Yes, the Presa is an "imposing" (let´s use this word..) dog.-- In Portugal we have a very similar breed called "Fila de Sao Miguel", or "Azores cattle dog". (São Miguel is one of the 9 islands of the Azores archipelago)--If you google it you will find a smaller (males up to 90 lbs) Presa Canario (form the Canary islands that belong to Spain) with a similar temperament.-- I know how they are and that they have to respect the entire family.--When they are thought to, they are absolutely fantastic; If they didn´t learn that in the early stages of their lives, it takes a lot of work. Doable but work and commitement from everybody is requiered.-----Ultimately, if you do not have the time or the help to do it, it is best to rehome Lady.-- If you feel insecure as regards the safety of your family, it´s best to rehome Lady; If you have several "strangers" visiting your home when you cannot be there to introduce Lady to them, it is best to rehome her.-- Note that I would say the same if you had another breed. But of course the more powerful they are, the more damages they are able to cause.----- With any kind of dog, we can only keep them when we feel absolutely safe in having them in our homes

 

[cinnamon roll]

What rules did I break? I see my comments are getting deleted. While I don't disagree with anything you've said in your comment. I must protest YOUR involvement. You are exacerbating the situation. As a moderator you are required to be un-bias. Deleting my comments is showing a bias to my point of view. Which is worse than anything I may or may not have said.

You were personally attacking members. Which is not tolerated here.

I am unbiased, not that I need to defend myself to anyone.

You should go back and read the rules of the forum.

 

[Bob Felts]

Joe Flynn - I have followed this thread with interest. I am very interested in a Cane Corso. But wonder if that is too much dog for me. So I ask the folks around here that have first hand experience with the breed. Some for twenty maybe thirty years. They are able to advise me. Same with my EM. He's my first Mastiff, and has been quite a handful at times. I've always been given good solid advice, which has helped me and my dog immeasurably. So when I see these good people stop what they are doing in their lives, trying to help you and Lady, and you meet them with your attitude - you piss me off. If you can't find your answers here, there are other places to ask. You may find better luck there. You may recall something about not biting the hand that feeds you. Now, that's ironic. Please be a gentleman, and try not to be as abrasive to those that wish only to help you and Lady. Thanks now.

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[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Joao M you are right. I was doing research on the CC last night reading everything I could find almost for about 2 hours. Like you said, is most of what I read. They are needing to be under control from all of the family not just one person from an early age. They can be independent and willful. That's also another reason they don't well in new homes. Joe Flynn, it's really going to come down to your instincts and what you think is best for your family. You've known the dog for most of it's life. If you truly believe your own flesh and blood might be in danger we have no grounds to discredit you. If you think that maybe bringing in a professional to work with your family to learn to control the dog would help I implore you to do so. If you believe in your heart of hearts that's not an option or that your family will not be up to the task, only you will be able to make that decision. I feel for you. I will support whatever conclusion you come to. Sorry that your thread got derailed and crazy. If only people were as easy to work with as dogs lol. Don't be a stranger around here and don't let Lady be your last dog.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Oops I meant Presa Canario not CC. Though I read about CC's too because I'm considering maybe getting one in the next 5 years, After I'm happy with my current dogs training. I wish you were close I'd offer to see if your Lady would fit into my house and then you could come and visit. Thinking about moving to NM anytime soon? lol