Acceptable behaviour in mastiff breeds

[Duetsche_Doggen]

Here you go Oak Hill and Ruth:




Though you might need a couple tubes to get results!

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

If you are going to treat all day, the best way is to measure out the amount for the day ie: 3 cups. Use 3/4 cup for breakfast, 3/4 cup for dinner and 1.5 cups to train with during the day. So your dog is actually getting the nutrition he needs without excess calories of constant treating. It in-itself is a good training method for puppies to monitor calories.

But starving a dog so that when you bring out treats he is super attentive is a cop-out, easy-road method. It is ultimate NILIF. It has it's principles, as stated above, (for extreme aggressive cases or extreme abuse cases) when no other methods will work do to extreme distrust, but not for the average dog owner to use with a mildly disobedient dog, and not for a growing puppy. Maybe he should spend more time building positive relationships with his dog, so they want to please and aren't being forced to for nutrition.

DD Please mail STAT!

 

[ruthcatrin]

I think I need it DD....

 

[Marrowshard]

Thanks a lot DD, now that damn commercial is stuck in my head.

"HEAD-ON! Apply directly to the forehead!"
"HEAD-ON! Apply directly to the forehead!"
"HEAD-ON! ..."

OMG IT NEVER STOPS!

~Marrow

 

[Jadotha]

I am just totally gob-smacked by the blogs! I have little to add to OHF's excellent points, aside from a couple of observations: First IMO Glasgow, you do not appear to have even a consistent theoretical foundation, much less sufficient experience in applying it to be giving advice. It appears to me that you have educated yourself to some extent about, and cobbled together concepts (operant conditioning, threshold training, NILF) that appeal to you, but then are misapplying them (e.g., the kibble concept above), or using approaches/offering advice that are/is totally inconsistent to your espoused theory: STARVING a dog for days?!!! You are advising us that through training, we can extinguish the breed related instincts and behaviours of all of our mastiffs , but you can't help an aggressive 16 week old Bulldog puppy?

Also, re: Learning capacity in dogs: Certaintly classical/operant conditioning is a powerful training tool. However, dogs are not lab rats or automatons. Studies in canine cognition have shown dogs have a number of other modalities for learning: Among them: Observation of people's or other dogs' methods for doing things; taking cues from people's expressions; trial and error; arriving at and testing their own 'conclusions' (e.g., if researchers put three cups in front of dog, then hide them behind the screen, when the dog is given access again, it will expect to see three cups); discovering and internalising successful ways to solve problems.

I also wonder why there are no credentials or professional memberships yet listed on your website. Having lived in England for a long while, I know there are organisations such as the Association for Pet Dog Trainers, UK

 

[Duetsche_Doggen]

At least I didn't put the actual commercial clip :razzberry:

 

[Robtouw]

[If your dog lunges at people in the street, doesn't like other dogs barks constantly, chases cars etc it's usually because of lack of proper socialisation and training.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree. While well bred dogs usually have some "predefined" traits, even the best bred dog can develop issues due to inproper training and socialization. You can easily convert a well bred, well mannered dog into a dangerous weapon. I am very vocal about responsible dog ownership. I think it is the responsibility of every dog owner regardless of the breed, to properly treat their dog, teach them manners, keep them in good health, teach them to respect other animals and people and learn how to properly protect their people & territory.

While some breeds are more aggressive and protective then others, they in the right surroundings if taught early can be safe, happy companions. I research all breeds I think about owning to get a good idea as to their predisposed traits, and purposely choose those with less aggressive tendencies. My last OEM was taught that not all people are safe, but also how to handle a threat. My last Rotti went to school in Germany and was trained to react to my emotions. As a guardian he was very protective, territorial and very bonded to just me. He was taught to put himself between me and the threat, take a defensive posture and sound off to the threat. He was taught not to lunge, attack or charge without my direction. This took alot of work and did end up being beneficial. I was attacked by a pit bull in my front yard years ago, Rollie ended up taking the pit by the throat, locked his jaw around the dog's neck and held him in position until he was told to release. The pit had a history of biting and was later put down by the authorities because of aggression. Rollie was pretty scary during the event and I have to admit I was afraid that it was going to be a pretty ugly scene, but he did exactly as trained and kept me safe with only a few scratches and a hole in my fav jeans! I feel that if you own a guardian you have a responsiblity to train it fully to keep it, you and the public safe, no excuses. It can be done, I experienced exactly what they are capable of and am totally amazed and thankful!

 

[angelbears]

Yet, another wonderful post, Jadotha! I hope everyone apprecaites the time and effort some of our members have put into this. If just one person gets anything from it, it is well worth it!

I know what effects a bad trainer can have on the development of a dog.

 

[Robtouw]

I never, never, never condone starving an animal or with holding food for training or any other purposes. That is just plain stupid and cruel regardless of their issues. If a person thinks this is the proper method to break or train an animal they should not be allowed within sight of one.

 

[allsierra123]

I think alot the comparisons drawn here are apples to oranges. Most mastiffs have always been estate or farm guardians. Not ppd's. They can be adapted to such work. But your talking mostly having these breeds interact with strangers. They were nevee intended for that.they are independant thinkers.and will react as such. They will never be shepherds rotties or Dobies. There is a reason those types of dogs are used for that work. If a mastiff perceived a.true threat good luck holding him back.there are varying degrees of this reaction the em probably being the most mild. The problem isnt the need to change there reaction or even the training. Its that like everything else people think the biggest is best or they need status. When in all honesty most people dont need the services mastiffs provide and have been breed for centuries to do so.

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jadotha]

Allsierra,
I am quite interested in your thoughts! But I am a little confused by the comments, "I think alot the comparisons drawn here are apples to oranges. Most mastiffs have always been estate or farm guardians. Not ppd's".. and,
[h=2][/h]"Its that like everything else people think the biggest is best or they need status. When in all honesty most people dont need the services mastiffs provide and have been breed for centuries to do so".

Can you say a bit more about this, please? Did you mean people in our forum, Glasgow, or referring to people in general?

---------- Post added at 05:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 PM ----------

Thank you, AB

 

[Jadotha]

Thank you, AB

 

[Jayne]

Hi Glasgowdog trainer
I got your point.. and it is a valid one in my opinion.. The UK is very different from the States and it is hard for Americans to understand our abused dog culture. We rae a small country with a lot of status dogs!!
I have a 12 week old DDB and my friends daughter said - 'why did you get that breed when they eat children?" - As we know they don't... but they do have a rep which is verging on ludicrous. I want my DDB to guard us as a family - ON COMAND- that is the point is it not... Well trained scociable and still doing their instinctual job ...

 

[Jadotha]

@ Jayne
What do you mean by 'abused dog culture' -- and where ? The UK may be a small island, but it does encompass discrete member countries and cultures. My family and I lived in England for almost 12 years, and I am still a resident -- spending over half of each year there. We lived variously in the Southern Counties and Essex. We kept IWHs and Great Danes which I took for daily extended walks along village streets, canals and common land. People we encountered loved them and knew quite a lot about the breeds. Many of these people had their own dogs off-leash, perfectly controlled. We also had close friends who bred and kept well trained English Mastiffs. They, too had only positive experiences with the public. Well trained dogs of all ilk were/still common sights in pubs and outdoor cafes. ????

 

[grazefull1]

Hi Glasgowdog trainer
I got your point.. and it is a valid one in my opinion.. The UK is very different from the States and it is hard for Americans to understand our abused dog culture. We rae a small country with a lot of status dogs!!
I have a 12 week old DDB and my friends daughter said - 'why did you get that breed when they eat children?" - As we know they don't... but they do have a rep which is verging on ludicrous. I want my DDB to guard us as a family - ON COMAND- that is the point is it not... Well trained scociable and still doing their instinctual job ...[/QUOTE

pls tell me y we dont understand n pls make as simple as possible lol since im from the usa lol
u can also send the info to just me if its a long histery/story i would wont to no n not b ignorent

 

[Jadotha]

@ OHF

Forgot to say, as someone who was augmenting meals with treats for training -- and noticed my pup getting pudgy-- I really appreciated your suggested meal/training ratios. VERY helpful

 

[Jayne]

HI Grazefull1

Thanks.

The Uk is tiny in comparison to the states and we all live on top of one another!.. There is a HUGE culture in the UK on status dogs where they are promoted to fight. They are dressed up in massive studded collars and the 'public' are aware that if you go near you will loose a hand etc.... This has got so bad that the goverment have 'Banned certain dogs such as the pit bull. As the majority were trained 'only' to be aggressive.

This is now leaking into Staffies and Mastiffs.
Some people in the UK are breeding aggression into these dogs which are giving them a really bad name - We constantly hear of petitions to have dogs put to sleep. The 'low lifes ' who are doing this to the animals make if so difficult for a responsible dog owners to walk in public with their well behaved dogs. We do not have 'dog parks' because of this problem - They would become 'owned' by the BULLY dog owners.

I live in a small village - about 200 houses - There are at least 20 of these families in my village alone. These people will challenge you when walking and force you to go a different way by telling you"He will have him!" They use the aggresive nature of their dogs to intimidate you and boast about it.
I have a Weim and a DDB - People look at my DDB and think she is a Pit bull!! Such is the ignorance of the general public in the UK.. I took her to a market at the weekend and got asked several time - Is she on the banned list???
We are so not used to seeing dogs of her type in public areas it worrys people - This i am afraid is all down to the 'thick scum' who have misused dog traits to their own 'i am dead hard' status..
Personally i think the owners should be put down and not the dogs who they mistreat to bring out the feircest aggression they can. They do quite simply give dogs a bad name.
It is a HUGE problem over hear and in the news daily.
By no way was i saying you didn't understand as you didn't have the ability to. It is a case if living it.. Another couple of years we will have to muzzle our dogs to take them for a walk - OH - and then get taxed for it - Our govenment does like its taxes!!
I hope the USA never gets like this. You seem to live in a very free country in comparison where you can hunt and - eat what you hunt .... That would NEVER EVER happen over here. We are too wrapped up in red tape !

If a burgular broke into your house in the UK and your dog bit it - The owner of the dog would be heavly fined and the dog put to sleep - No question.. This is wrong.. But happens time and time again - Then that breed goes on a list of next to be banned etc....

Saying that - i know that my dogs would bark and create holly hell if someone attempted to break in to my property. That is there job. Unfortunatley if the barking didnt scare him away he would most likely get bitten.
My view--Serves him right
Goverments view - Put her to sleep......

What i was agreeing with is - A mastiff can be well behaved and a good family pet if it is well socialised and well trained... It does not have to have the 'i am going to rip your throat out' reputation that a certain 'brand ' of people have been trying to give it. -

I love my dogs with all my heart and try and bring out the best in them while still allowing them to be who they are. This unfortunatley is now the minority in this country - Not something to be proud of....

 

[Jayne]

@ Jayne
What do you mean by 'abused dog culture' -- and where ? The UK may be a small island, but it does encompass discrete member countries and cultures. My family and I lived in England for almost 12 years, and I am still a resident -- spending over half of each year there. We lived variously in the Southern Counties and Essex. We kept IWHs and Great Danes which I took for daily extended walks along village streets, canals and common land. People we encountered loved them and knew quite a lot about the breeds. Many of these people had their own dogs off-leash, perfectly controlled. We also had close friends who bred and kept well trained English Mastiffs. They, too had only positive experiences with the public. Well trained dogs of all ilk were/still common sights in pubs and outdoor cafes. ????

The gist of the comment made by Glasgowdog was taken by me to say - disregard breed stereo type and go with the breed you want and train train train to get them well mannered sociable dogs that can be in public with good manners.
If you have lived in the UK you will know the kind of ' stereo type ' dog owner i am talking about. There are far too many in this contry giving certain dog breeds bad names - To be 'proud that you dog can not be approached because it will rip you to bits is disgusting. Only in May of this year a DDB bit the face of a toddler and its owner stabbed it to death - He had no control over his animals and as such his GSD's were taken from him as well. This sort of thing is happening all the time in the UK -
I have a DDB and people are wary because of the recent attack ( all but the only one i know of in recent years with this breed ) People are very quick to judge our dogs based on the bad things. Imagin if it had ben a GD and the next time you were walking you well mannered dog who liked a hello and a pat from passers by grabbed their kids by the hand and crossed the road avoiding eye contact....
My friends daughter who has grown up around GSD's asked me why i had got dog who eats children?... its happening.
In the mail the general public are great on walks and there are still a lot of dog lovers in my area. The sort of people i am refering to who 'abuse dog culture' by using them as a dangerous weapons will not be found in kent walking along a riverbank on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[ruthcatrin]

The gist of the comment made by Glasgowdog was taken by me to say - disregard breed stereo type and go with the breed you want and train train train to get them well mannered sociable dogs that can be in public with good manners.

Here's the problem. Some of these dogs CANNOT be socialable in public and tolerant of strangers. And it has nothing to do with a stereotype. And I have a HUGE problem with saying that if you aren't able to train your dog to be such then either you suck as a trainer or the dog has to be euthanized. To say that you can take ANY breed/type of dog, and TRAIN them to act that way is a HUGE falicy of the dog training world. It has nothing to do with stereotypes. Its the FACTS of what these dogs are. Yes there are exceptions to every rule, I own one, but to lay down the blanket statement that regardless of the breed or type or what-have you that the dog can be trained to be happy dealing with the public is a massive piece of BS. Add in his OWN WORDS from his OWN WEBSITE as to how he approaches training? No. Just no.

Frankly I consider THAT attitude to be half the problem with publicly aggressive dog behavior. The dog HAS to behave like a socialized lab in public. THere for you insist that the dog act that way in public, ignoring the dog's own instincts. And you get a dog who WILL lash out eventually when they cannot cope any more.

 

[Jadotha]

Jayne,
I personally have never thus far encountered a 'stereo dog owner' in the UK, and although I no longer keep my dogs in England, when I am there for the six months plus each year I spend time with my dogs' breeders, and many friends with various kinds of mastiffs, staffordshire terriers and rotties, The fiercest dogs I've come across have been Jack Russells, and one very bolshy portuguese water dog.

However, I am sure that your experiences are just as 'true', and I'll just consider myself fortunate. As the breeding of vicious and aggressive 'Bad Azz' dogs is quite prevalent here in the US, I am perfectly willing to believe it is an increasing problem in England, as well. The issue as I see it is that the 'brand' of people who want to cultivate 'i am going to rip your throat out' attitudes and behaviours on the part of their dogs, are not going to be reading this forum and could care less about "Acceptable Behaviour in Mastiff Breeds' blogs on training sites.

Next, if you have slogged through this entire thread, with or without Advil, you should have observed that virtually no one who has posted said that it was perfectly all right for their dogs to lunge and snap at people and/or behave with an 'I'm going to rip your throat out' attitude. However, Ruthcatrin beat me to the punch in saying STANDARDS (NOT STEROTYPES) for the temperament of different breeds do vary in terms of how sociable and tolerant of strangers they can and should be. I spent a long while listing these diverse breed temperament expectations and requirements on page 2 or 3. these standards were not dreamed by the Bad Azz brands of people but established by the governing bodies of the breeds. I don't think that through six pages of discussion a single person did not agree dogs should be well trained and in control.

What we all have all baulked at, (and were frankly alarmed by) was the assertion:

With our breeds you can have the super friendly, easy going, well adjusted, pleasure to own dog. Our dogs can be like Labrador and goldens, it just takes a ton more work and a much more proactive approach on our part.

. This is simply not true, and such 'Twinkie Zone' thinking can influence innocent, inexperienced dog owners who would be completely out of their depth with, say, a Fila, getting one because they like how they look, and are convinced that, of course, it can trained to act like a happy lab. This is the kind of scenario that can end in tragedy.

Also, I've expressed my view of the training concepts and methods described on the website, so I'll not repeat myself here