Honest opinions regarding litter vs no litter at all

[teodora]

I'd love to be able to manage it, but they can feel each other from 2.5 acres distance and, sorry, that's all the land I've got.

 

[Boxergirl]

i know spaying is very much recommended by vets in the USA and many around the world but 1- there are methods other than full spaying.2- spaying could cause behavioral changes in females that are impossible to correct: aggressiveness, involuntary peeing (Incontinance) in giant breeds3- it will not avoid mammary cancer, this is very questionable4- its not naturalthis is my opinion, and the opinion of my friend here who is an expert in dogs and breeding especially giant breeeds like CAO,i know it can be a pain but i would not spay and just manage it when females are in heat.

You do raise a good point about spay incontinence. It's very common in all breeds, not just giants. My boxer wore diapers for years. She was spayed at 6 months and started leaking by three years. Spaying does reduce the risk of mammary tumors, but to my knowledge it seems to only be a significant reduction if done before the first heat. The statistics on aggression after spaying seem to be rather evenly split. I'm looking into an ovary sparing spay for Ella. I was surprised that the cost is not prohibitive. The biggest risk is that you must have a vet experienced in the procedure or you risk stump pyometra from any little bit left after removal. I don't know what the options are in other countries for ovary sparing spays.

 

[gilles]

spaying and neutering are recommended for specific reasons and your babies are not qualified for such reasons , you have wonderful babies no need to mess with them...fixing hem will only make your vet richer. the internet info is very misleading and many times not reliable.

 

[teodora]

I agree that the info on net is misleading and I'm not at all a desexing fan, it's certainly unnatural. To keep Jack on medications for the whole duration of the girls heat is unnatural also. I am genuinely worried for his health - and for the mental health of the girl in isolation, as well. I think it's plain cruel for them all. Unless I get about 2.5 millions to be able to buy a large enough farm, and I don't see this amount of money coming from anywhere, I have to do something about it. I know the trick with parfume/vicks on show dogs... doesn't work. Nothing works. I don't have much choice here.

 

[gilles]

I agree that the info on net is misleading and I'm not at all a desexing fan, it's certainly unnatural. To keep Jack on medications for the whole duration of the girls heat is unnatural also. I am genuinely worried for his health - and for the mental health of the girl in isolation, as well. I think it's plain cruel for them all. Unless I get about 2.5 millions to be able to buy a large enough farm, and I don't see this amount of money coming from anywhere, I have to do something about it. I know the trick with parfume/vicks on show dogs... doesn't work. Nothing works. I don't have much choice here.

you can move a female in heat to a friend or facility , i am not sure how available these things are but you are right you do need space if you want to keep her...i donno what to say but its only 3 weeks and at your place i will try to manage, putting her away for 3 weeks is ok she wont suffer much but spaying her ....!!!!

 

[gilles]

You do raise a good point about spay incontinence. It's very common in all breeds, not just giants. My boxer wore diapers for years. She was spayed at 6 months and started leaking by three years. Spaying does reduce the risk of mammary tumors, but to my knowledge it seems to only be a significant reduction if done before the first heat. The statistics on aggression after spaying seem to be rather evenly split. I'm looking into an ovary sparing spay for Ella. I was surprised that the cost is not prohibitive. The biggest risk is that you must have a vet experienced in the procedure or you risk stump pyometra from any little bit left after removal. I don't know what the options are in other countries for ovary sparing spays.

yes incontinence does occur frequently in spayed dogs of all sizes but even more so in giant breeds..there are procedures that will spare ovaries like tying tubes and removing uterus keeping ovaries.. but not many vets are familiar with the procedure and dont ask me why.removing ovaries or testes for males will mess up many things, the hormone production is linked to the hypothalamus in the brain and there is a feedback process going on between gonads and brain, neutering and spaying will mess up this process. as far as ovary cancer ..imagine all guys remove their testes just to avoid testicular cancer or women doing the same by removing breasts..sorry if my example is a bit extreme but i cannot justify removing ovaries for the sake of avoiding ovarian cancer.. + this type of cancer is rare. its just my opinion on the subject, many will disagree but for me i cannot think of doing such a thing for any of my babies

 

[JamieHalverson]

There are other options, like Boxergirl said, an ovary sparring spay, which I'm probably going to do with Lillie. I'm still on the fence with that one... or a vasectomy for Jack. The behaviors would remain around bitches in heat, but no danger of an accidental litter.

 

[Boxergirl]

yes incontinence does occur frequently in spayed dogs of all sizes but even more so in giant breeds..there are procedures that will spare ovaries like tying tubes and removing uterus keeping ovaries.. but not many vets are familiar with the procedure and dont ask me why.removing ovaries or testes for males will mess up many things, the hormone production is linked to the hypothalamus in the brain and there is a feedback process going on between gonads and brain, neutering and spaying will mess up this process. as far as ovary cancer ..imagine all guys remove their testes just to avoid testicular cancer or women doing the same by removing breasts..sorry if my example is a bit extreme but i cannot justify removing ovaries for the sake of avoiding ovarian cancer.. + this type of cancer is rare. its just my opinion on the subject, many will disagree but for me i cannot think of doing such a thing for any of my babies

Pyometra isn't rare though and that risk is taken away with an ovary sparing spay. Pyo is a real risk, especially if you have a bitch that cycles every four or five months. I've done a lot of research on the pros and cons of spaying and neutering. I am not pro-altering. I'm pro-educate yourself. I had a male with testicular cancer and that hasn't made me want to neuter every male I will ever have. I think it's important to not discount the greater risk to a female that remains intact. Particularly if they aren't ever bred as that seems to also increase the risk of pyo.

"Intact older female dogs that have never given birth are at a higher risk of developing pyometra or cystic endometrial hyperplasia." Pyometra - Dogs | Thickening of the Uterus | petMD

Like I said - for me I will have a partial spay done on my girl because she cycles every five months and her risk is increased. Everyone should do as they feel best, but with full understanding of all the risks.

Gilles, can you give me a link to a study that shows giant breeds are more prone to spay incontinence? My experience is that it's pretty equal across the board. I'd appreciate reading anything you have.

Teodora, I just want you to have all information you can to make an educated decision. I know how important your girls are to you. There are articles out there that suggest that the risk of pyometra is greater for female dogs that remain intact but have not been bred. Since I, like you, won't be breeding my girl I have decided on an ovary sparing spay. It seems to eliminate the greater risk, IMO. I hope you find a solution that you are comfortable with.

 

[marke]

don't know much about ovary sparing spays , but i think it's the sex related issues your having a problem with , not sure an ovary sparing spay is a solution to that ? as far as spaying the girls , i've had a bunch of spayed girls , 2 living in my house right now , i've never seen spay incontinence , only read about it ..... the only behavior it will change in a bitch , is the behavior you see when they are in season ....... pyometra !!!! i can't believe how much of it i've seen , and how many dogs die from it ........ if you keep a bitch dog like mine intact for it's life , i would take a bet they will get pyo in their lifetime all day everyday ....... and i can tell you from experience when they do get pyo , it's better when they're 4 or 5 as opposed to 10 , they odds of 9-11yr old dog surviving it is significantly less ......... i personally wouldn't neuter a male unless there was a medical reason , or a sex related behavior issue .........

 

[sjdavenport]

I'm glad you've chosen not to breed your girls. I agree with others - so many health risks, no health benefits. I'm not at all convinced about the ovary sparing spay however. I feel like those dogs are still going to be at significant risk for stump pyometras and my mentors have all felt the same way. As someone who has done quite a few spays at this point and who has watched a few videos of an ovary sparing spay being performed, I feel like it's pretty darn difficult to make sure you get ALL of the uterine tissue. You also need a larger abdominal incision to get the added visibility you need. Your girls will also still cycle normally and still drive Jack crazy. And of course there's the whole mammary cancer risk. Dogs spayed before their first heat cycle have only a 0.5% risk (pretty much zero, although I'm not recommending this). The risk increases to 8% when spayed after second heat, and by 2.5 years of age spaying offers no decreased risk benefit. Just something to think about. There's really no best solution. You just have to sift through all the information and make the best decision you can for your and your girls.

 

[gilles]

Boxergirl: i did not get the info about incontinence due to spaying from a link on the net ....i just asked sergei (expert breeder, behaviorist, judge, psychologist and trainer 40 years experience in CAO and CO sitting here in the same room with me right now. according to him he noticed a greater incidence of urinary incontinence in larger dogs after spaying and its more common than thought. sergei had done lots of research with many scientists (he himself is also an animal biologist) and i really believe what he says. but also if you just google around you will find many articles , where the percentage of incontinence is higher in larger dogs and up to 20% although sergei claims that is even higher. also he noted increase in aggressiveness in CAO females after spaying.

 

[davidtq]

Firstly I have no experience of breeding dogs! So take everything I say with a grain of salt. Ive heard a few people say that being used for breeding changed their male dogs personality, I guess they then "know what its all aout". Never experienced this first hand. In your situation considering the stress the heat cycles are causing for boys and girls and given that you have 2 girls and 1 boy I would consider a vasectomy on the boy, leaving the girls entire and your options open. You are saving the boy stress every 3 months. If at some point in the future you did feel a pressing desire to breed your dogs you could have the girls properly health tested, and use a stud dog of suitable quality to produce pure bred puppies of good quality, the value of the pups being increased should hopefully help offset the cost of using a good stud dog. Whilst I would recommend in this case using a same breed stud dog, Im not at all opposed to well thought out cross breeds, I actually think the limited genepools of KC controlled closed gene pools has massive detrimental affects on the animals as a whole. I do however think health and soundness needs to be an absolute priority and just being a cross breed doesnt guarantee that. You just have to look at the histories of our dog breeds and even our English Mastiffs are NOT Pure breeds, they are a created breed rescued after the second world war with infusions from other breeds. They carry a genetic heritage from the mastiffs of old, but they had to be crossed to be saved. The breeds we have are mostly limited gene pool crosses from earlier breeds. Great Danes are according to some sources a irish wolf hound mastiff cross from a limited founding pool, Bull mastiffs are bull dog mastiff crosses again with a limited founding pool. Boxers are a Bull dog (original bull dog not todays version) Bullenbeiser cross with a few other infusions again from a founding genetic pool or very very few individuals. There are very very few breeds that have never been crossed before the KC's started up keeping pedigree records. I really dont buy into the idea that limiting a gene pool to a select few founders and calling it a pedigree magically improves the breed. I dont believe chasing "Breed Standards" has done the dog world any big favours. I do however think high standards of health testing of parents, and thinking about genetic outcomes makes a lot of good sense. I dont see a problem with crossing with a purpose just like the game keepers of not too long ago creating the bull mastiff. Planned crossing is the basis of so many of our modern pedigrees, I see no reason not to carry on the tradition of trying to create the dogs we want to suit our own times and tastes, as long as its intelligently done.

 

[gilles]

^^^^ thats one half way solution here that could be considered : vasectomy for the boy and just leave females intact... not bad idea.as far as breeding i dont mind crossing either as long as health is ok, personally just wont do it because i dont know what the outcome would be, but between CC and NEO it could be ok. however maybe it will be harder to find homes for the puppies.

 

[sjdavenport]

Except a vasectomy wouldn't affect Jack's drive and desire to get to the girls every single time they go into heat. Which doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to deal with to me.

 

[marke]

David , there is a breed out there with a 7/8ths rule , it's a free for all , folks adding whatever they think will make a better dog .... temperamentally , physically , and healthwise from my perspective that breed has more problems than any breed i have ever known , they're called american bulldogs ...... the only american bulldogs that are actually healthy and sound are the ones owned by performance folks , and those dogs are inbred to a scary degree and ruthlessly culled .............. outcrossing is not the answer or cause of any purebreed problems , selection is ......... if your breeding a dog and are concerned about the cost of using the best you can find , or making up for the cost in puppy sales , imo , you shouldn't be breeding your dog ......... i don't believe a vasectomy will curb a dogs sex drive ....jmo

 

[marke]

i do know of a few dogs that have died from heat stroke being penned around a bitch in heat .......

 

[gilles]

^^ true the rive will be there ...i guess the only solution if you keep tem intact is to put the female in heat away for 3 weeks or the male maybe its easier to find the male a place for 3 weeks.

 

[teodora]

As I said, I can't put them away for 3 weeks every 3 months. It's very stressful for Jack and I was worried about him having a stroke. It's very stressful for the girls as well. Since the girls are at higher risk if left entire, I'd probably prefer to fix them when they end up growing. Not sure about the procedure, this is another topic to study. For now it's pretty clear that a pregnancy won't help them in any way. It also leaves the females with that saggy look that I dislike (neos have enough skin and folds anyway!) But I'd accept it if it was beneficial for their health. Puppies: I'd prefer to have cane and neo puppies from good lines but I won't be able to sell them anyway and probably I'll end up giving them for free to good people I know well. Giving the vet costs of birth and pregnancy monitoring and the cost of a good bloodline stud with no return... I don't see it happening either.

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[tlov]

If I were you I'd have the girls spayed when they are 18mos-2yrs. There wouldn't really be any reason to do an ovary sparying spay. Your male would still be crazy trying to mate with them when they were in heat. There was some mention of spay incontinence. From what I've read that's usually a problem for dogs who are spayed too young. That shouldn't be an issue if you wait till they mature.


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[teodora]

I will wait 6 more months - 1 year, I want a good surgeon for them even if it's a routine op. They are my beauties.

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