Some dogs need harsh training?

[Joao M]

That was a good reading in my lunch break.----- I second CJ´s opinion.-

My two cents (and no I'm not a trainer by any stretch) is that teaching a dog is like raising a child. It would be marvelous if everything we wanted to teach could be taught by positive actions. Right now I'm trying to teach my partners son to cross the road safely. If he stops and checks he gets told "nice one dude" Positive. If he tries to cross with out looking he gets called back and asked what he was playing at. Neutral. If he goes to run in to traffic your damn right he gets yanked back by his collar and bollcked. Negative. Do I want to drag him back and yell, no I don't. I hate having to do it. But his action is unacceptable and dangerous and the quickest and safest way to deal with it is by correction.

----- Having said that and please don´t take me wrong, sometimes I get the impression there is a bit of over reaction as regards "how to keep, teach and train a dog" in your country when compared to what happens in mine.-- In my city (Lisbon, capital of Portugal) we have around 1,2 million people and lots (I mean lots...) of dogs.-- There is probably less than 20 "dog schools" in the city and the impression I have is that they struggle to survive.-- People teach their owndogs and things go by without relevant incidents.-- Some problems happen from time to time naturally but nothing serious that would hit the news (except for some pit bull issues in problematic neighborhoods, usually drug related).----- But I think the overall approach is different: if a person or dog gets bitten (unless is really severe, like life threatening ), we apologize, pay for treatment and people move on, but no one even considers a lawsuit; a policeman is more likely to accept a bite from a dog than to shoot one (no records of happening to the best of my knowledge) and so on.----Again, please don´t take this wrong I am just comparing different cultures and approaches as regards dog keeping in general

 

[jere.steph13]

Good Afternoon. We have a 14 week old male Cane. We have had him for almost a month and are working on bad habits and incorrect behavior. Right now drastic correction, nor positive correction don't seem to work. We have started puppy training classes (positive training and fun for the puppies is how they construct the started training class), and he did very well the first week. When we get home he becomes very stubborn. I know he is highly intelligent, but I/we can't seem to figure out how to work with that. Sometimes we can tell he hears us, but chooses to not listen. Which gets frustrating because being positive doesn't seem to work, it's like he has "caught on", lol, and just won't do what we are asking from him. He's the only dog I know that doesn't like to go on walks.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

AT 14 weeks you might just be expecting a little to much. Just because he can sit inside you home for example, doesn't mean he would sit outside with another dog running around. Every new situation and every different distraction has to be worked and trained through. I invite you to search for a man named Dr. Ian Dunbar on youtube. Another person that has lots of videos that I could recommend is Solid K9 Training. One is almost purely positive (the Dr.) the other is a so called "balanced" trainer. We also have a member here on the forums that is a pure positive trainer that has videos on youtube as well. His name is Glasgow Dog Trainer. There is so much good(and bad), free info on the webs. Those are just a few that pop up right off the top of my head./\/\/\/\Personally I'd recommend studying all you can and apply the knowledge you acquire to do what works best for you and your situation. I'm glad you are taking classes that are a positive method of training. From what I've read science is beginning to prove that pure or at least mostly positive training methods are to be more effective as compared to many of the older training methods that are quickly becoming outdated. Another method you could look into is NILF, Nothing In Life is Free./\/\/\/\ I invite you also to use the search function here on the site for info, poke through some threads. Or start your own thread and ask specific questions regarding the issues you are having.

 

[Tosa]

Great thread!! I think every dog is different and some of them are accepting various methods really well. I've seen very trained dogs that were hard to handle just with positive reinforcement. But my dog is another story. She is extremely gentle, fearful and sensitive. My raised voice, even if it has nothing to do with her, makes her have the saddest face on the planet. She is extremely loving to please and i would say her life goal is to make us happy. If we aren't, she isn't either. Working harsh with Tosa would destroy her. But seeing other dogs in my family makes my opinion a lot wider that my own experience.

 

[Tosa]

Great thread!! I think every dog is different and some of them are accepting various methods really well. I've seen well trained dogs that were hard to handle just with positive reinforcement. But my dog is another story. She is extremely gentle, fearful and sensitive. My raised voice, even if it has nothing to do with her, makes her have the saddest face on the planet. She is extremely loving to please and i would say her life goal is to make us happy. If we aren't, she isn't either. Working harsh with Tosa would destroy her. But seeing other dogs in my family makes my opinion a lot wider that my own experience.

 

[jere.steph13]

AT 14 weeks you might just be expecting a little to much. Just because he can sit inside you home for example, doesn't mean he would sit outside with another dog running around. Every new situation and every different distraction has to be worked and trained through. I invite you to search for a man named Dr. Ian Dunbar on youtube. Another person that has lots of videos that I could recommend is Solid K9 Training. One is almost purely positive (the Dr.) the other is a so called "balanced" trainer. We also have a member here on the forums that is a pure positive trainer that has videos on youtube as well. His name is Glasgow Dog Trainer. There is so much good(and bad), free info on the webs. Those are just a few that pop up right off the top of my head./\/\/\/\Personally I'd recommend studying all you can and apply the knowledge you acquire to do what works best for you and your situation. I'm glad you are taking cl$#@! that are a positive method of training. From what I've read science is beginning to prove that pure or at least mostly positive training methods are to be more effective as compared to many of the older training methods that are quickly becoming outdated. Another method you could look into is NILF, Nothing In Life is Free./\/\/\/\ I invite you also to use the search function here on the site for info, poke through some threads. Or start your own thread and ask specific questions regarding the issues you are having.

Still figuring out how this forum thing works. I'm SOOOO glad to have found one dedicated to Mastiffs, we love ours and that is why this puppy stage we are going through is so difficult for us. What I read here, I share with my husband. I will look at youtube and check out the videos. We have started working with a trainer/behaviorist, but we still have bad days. Last night was one of them. We had a great weekend with Koah, he did well, listened ok for an almost 4 mo old puppy. The more I read here, online, and see in videos, I think we need to set strict training guidelines, start over with him, and stick to the command/reward training. He is not responding to being reprimanded and we do not want to have/let this negatively effect him for the rest of his life.

 

[cj-sharpy]

Reprimands are defiantly not the way to go. Rewards are far better.
You catch more wasps with honey than vinegar.
I've always kept reprimands for when they are needed. By which I mean the dogs actions are a danger to himself or others.
A trainer is a fab idea. You will notice that the really good ones don't actually teach the dog a damn thing. They teach YOU where you are going wrong and give you the tools to go help your self.
This is especially important I think with our chosen dogs as the bond is great between dog and human. They may not listen to a trainer or worse may learn the trainer is in charge and ignore commands from us.
From experience I met a great trainer (actually a sniffer dog worker and police liason, but with a love of the giants) who helped me greatly. I once thanked her for all she had done to help Max and keep him away from the needle. She said she had taught Max nothing. It took me a minute to work.out what she meant.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk

 

[Esand]

Reprimands are defiantly not the way to go. Rewards are far better.
You catch more wasps with honey than vinegar.

You catch wasps with honey and kill wasps with RAID. Depends on what you're trying to do. If all you have is honey its pretty damn hard to keep the wasps away.

 

[Caleb]

I can understand where you are coming from with a different culture and all. Unfortunately there is lots of hippy nonsense going on in America these days when it concerns the treatment of dogs. This is the land of privilege and plenty. I'm more than glad to live here but people need to understand that from time to time, a dogs and kids need to be snatched-the-hell-up!

 

[Caleb]

We don't have Filas in Scotland but I've seen a Komodo dragon in captivity trained using 100% positive reinforcement. But maybe you're saying a Fila is more difficult to train than a komodo? I know I'm unlikely to change your view on prong collars, just countering the pervasive attitude of "stick a prong on your dog, their wonderful training tools with no adverse side effects" on this forum and I'll continue to do it.

I'm pretty indifferent about prong collars, and have never used one, I do however use some force to train dogs similar to Filas, and I see a lot of attacks on how people choose to train their dogs when it comes to being stern and forceful. This whole touchy feely concept when it comes to dog training is a relatively new world idea, and I don't think it's fair that everyone has to keep quiet and agree with it. As far as Filas and Komodo dragons...Komodo's are large, mindless monitor lizards. I would much rather be trapped in an enclosure with a hungry Komodo Dragon than a pissed off Fila...and that's a fact!

 

[fixitlouie]

Prong collar...Never used one. Let's look at how a pack of dogs gain alpha status. One alpha , how did he get their, positive reinforcement. ..haha ha. .. If you think just using "positive" stuff like treats, pats on the head, rub of the belly yields better handle on you dog I'm sorry.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

 

[fixitlouie]

[video=youtube;pWGOtY5N58I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=45&v=pWGOtY5N58I[/video]

And yet we apparently still "need" to train some dogs using a prong collar. Yeah, right. You might need to but if you're good enough you don't.

I'm sorry but most dogs are a lot smarter than a lizard. ......well mine are anyway

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

 

[marke]

you would need more than a prong collar to teach that gator to leave ducks , put in the pond with him , alone ?????? you could do it with negative consequences , animals have been conditioned to voluntarily starve themselves to death with electric shocks ........ if you tell a kid not to put his finger in a light socket because it will hurt , he may or may not do it , if you let him do it once , he'll for sure never do it again ......... negative consequences sure seem to be a stronger , longer lasting , more memorable motivator ............

 

[Caleb]

Prong collar...Never used one. Let's look at how a pack of dogs gain alpha status. One alpha , how did he get their, positive reinforcement. ..haha ha. .. If you think just using "positive" stuff like treats, pats on the head, rub of the belly yields better handle on you dog I'm sorry. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

Yes, dogs in packs hammer each other a lot harder than I do. People love to reference the whole "pack order" concept and the positive reinforcement in the same setting. What's socially acceptable is for doggy moms, not hog dogs.

 

[Caleb]

you would need more than a prong collar to teach that gator to leave ducks , put in the pond with him , alone ?????? you could do it with negative consequences , animals have been conditioned to voluntarily starve themselves to death with electric shocks ........ if you tell a kid not to put his finger in a light socket because it will hurt , he may or may not do it , if you let him do it once , he'll for sure never do it again ......... negative consequences sure seem to be a stronger , longer lasting , more memorable motivator ............

People have been very successful with certain positive reinforcement training in certain circumstances, so it does work(a lot of times), I don't like to spend countless hours dog training. I get it over with by making strong points, and life is good. I think the world would be amazed at how well this works with children as well.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I started using prong collars on my dogs within the past 2 months just to see what all the fuss is about. I let my wife wrap one around my neck and jerk on it a bit. I got excited. She went ahead and jerked me from the kitchen to the bedroom. That being said, sure they would hurt if you jerk them pretty hard. A dog's neck (especially my Mastiffs) is a lot tougher and less sensitive than mine for sure. What have I noticed specifically when using them? When my dogs are healing and I stop walking I want them to sit automatically without me saying a damn thing. I taught this by 1: Using leash pressure in conjunction with the verbal command every time I would stop. 2: Stop and apply leash pressure. 3: Stop and now they automatically sit. I taught this without a prong collar infact, they've learned all commands with either leash and flat buckle or no leash at all. With the prong collar that I use now, I've noticed that I can communicate a sit to them with very little leash pressure. They also tend to not pull at all when in extremely distractive environments like wal-mart food isles (Roxy is the only one that goes into wal-mart), Tractor supply treat/toy/food isles, walking past dogs leashed or unleashed, reacting to rabbits/squirrels/cats/horses. They are very away of the pressure it causes by them tightening the lead themselves. They work to keep the pressure off. I don't do leash pops, I do subtle communication and the prong is even more subtle than a flat buckle collar and less likely to cause harm to them.

I don't do "leash pops" ever. I use a technique I call finger pumps. It's meant to be informative and annoying rather than ouchy or obstructive. A short explanation would be I use a "thumblock" hold on the leash. When they fall too far out of heel it creates tension on the leash and inside the grip of my hand. I simply open and close the grip of my hand until they get into a position where there is no leash tension i.e. my hand gripping motion no longer is annoying them because they've corrected the issue themselves. I find this method to be very effective. It doesn't rely on the prong collar to teach, but now that I have prong collars and use them on occasion, it seems to actually be even more effective and I have to "pump" less often. I learned these techniques here:
[video=youtube;dVerxTYpUnE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVerxTYpUnE[/video] - YouTube[/url]

 

[Glasgowdogtrainer]

I'm sorry but most dogs are a lot smarter than a lizard. ......well mine are anywaySent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

Exactly

 

[marke]

have you ever had a pup that grew up to have a nasty temperament ??? one who had an instinct to bite what it didn't like , and it didn't like much of anything ........... do you believe there are such dogs ?

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Yes a red heeler named Bonito. I encouraged the behavior. He would try to tear you up if you got near my truck.He wouldn't even let my own girlfriend that lived with me sit next to me on the couch if he was inside with us. It was great! He would attack inanimate objects if I told him to. Best dog I ever had! He loved me and only me and cared fuck all about anyone or anything else. He calmed down a lot about the time he hit 8-9 years old. He was a straight killer, any strange dog, person, animal, not safe without my specific command to "SMOSH!" Even friends would not get out of their cars until I put him in his crate. :thumbsup:

 

[marke]

I've had a few , a rescue male , a male pup born here , and a female pup born here ... there were situations where I was glad they had a healthy respect for me ..... it afforded them long happy lives .....