Some dogs need harsh training?

[karennj]

My husband uses the old style training methods still. Much more Cesar Milan vs. Karen Pryor. When I brought Bear home I started to learn more of the positive methods while my husband was still being the "pack leader". With our other dogs we always were on the same page with training but this time we were using different techniques. Well I notice a MAJOR difference with the way Bear interacts with my husband vs. me or any other male. He is very weary and so submissive with Kevin upon approach. He was never hit but my husband gave what I would consider to be "believable corrections" and even 11-months later Bear does not fully trust him. Before we were using the same techniques so I never gave it any thought but now I seriously rethink some of the things I did prior to learning other methods. I also was not very good at reading body language before and probably missed a lot of cues that I see now. I have been teaching Kevin what I have learned and he is working on that partnership. Hoping we get to a point that Bear is not anticipating a correction.

 

[marke]

My husband uses the old style training methods still. Much more Cesar Milan vs. Karen Pryor. When I brought Bear home I started to learn more of the positive methods while my husband was still being the "pack leader". With our other dogs we always were on the same page with training but this time we were using different techniques. Well I notice a MAJOR difference with the way Bear interacts with my husband vs. me or any other male. He is very weary and so submissive with Kevin upon approach. He was never hit but my husband gave what I would consider to be "believable corrections" and even 11-months later Bear does not fully trust him. Before we were using the same techniques so I never gave it any thought but now I seriously rethink some of the things I did prior to learning other methods. I also was not very good at reading body language before and probably missed a lot of cues that I see now. I have been teaching Kevin what I have learned and he is working on that partnership. Hoping we get to a point that Bear is not anticipating a correction.

my thought is , if the dog is anticipating a correction all the time , he never knew what he was corrected for in the first place ............. also , if the dog is not over a correction 11 months later , the correction was too hard for the dog ....... some dogs need no more than a stern voice , or reaction from you .......... some dogs will blow off a hard correction as soon as it's done , or try to correct you for correcting them ..... I believe most people who would actually not correct their dog will be in need of help with that dog in the future ......... I just raised 3 simultaneously , there were a lot of corrections involved .... one would have been a candidate for the "all positive" , another the "balanced" , the third I guess would be "old school" , and I assure you if he anticipates a correction when he sees me , it's because of the behavior he's involved in when he sees me .... other than that he acts exactly the same as the other two .... I would love to see 3 pups like these , trained/socialized simultaneously "all positive" and end up with what I got right now .... I never separated them to train one ...... i'd actually tell most folks to go the "all positive" route , and then get help with the problems you can't deal with . because , giving corrections is harder than giving rewards , as a correction is a much stronger behavior modifier , and done inappropriately on a sensitive dog can lead to a confused scared dog , even neurotic ....... a reward at least leads to a happy dog , even if the dog hasn't a clue why he got it .......... my x's weimaraners ran roughshod over her , they knew how to act around me ....... I could tell you quite a few episodes where when given a choice they preferred me over her .

 

[karennj]

I think that is the important point about using aversion training. It may be perfectly fine for some dogs but may be way too much for most. That is why I like to try to go the "positive" route first. Train what you want instead of correcting for what you don't. I think you run less risk of messing up the relationship that way. My husband never gave Bear really harsh corrections. I think his presence was just too much "alpha" for him. I was very firm with Bear in the beginning too and very much acted the leader but apparently I am less scary, hehe.

 

[tmricciuto]

Interesting video. I like the leash holding technique


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Hector]

I think that is the important point about using aversion training. It may be perfectly fine for some dogs but may be way too much for most. That is why I like to try to go the "positive" route first. Train what you want instead of correcting for what you don't. I think you run less risk of messing up the relationship that way. My husband never gave Bear really harsh corrections. I think his presence was just too much "alpha" for him. I was very firm with Bear in the beginning too and very much acted the leader but apparently I am less scary, hehe.

I started to teach Hector a place command and I tried to do this without food. I put a slip leash on him and guided him on there. We've been doing this for 2 days. 1 place in the house and 1 place on the porch. Apparently this was too harsh for him. Every time I tell him to place, he'd run to his crate or jump on his bed. Today, I placed him on the spot on the porch and he leaked some pee. Again, I have to use a slip leash to place him every time. He acts very scared/stressed and even growled at me once last night when he retreated to his bed and sometimes he fights the leash pressure. Tonight, I decided to feed most of his kibble training the place command and will do this until he can place without help of a leash. His body language and energy has completely changed and he happily hops on place.

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

I taught place by grabbing their flat collars by hand. Chase(my DogVacay client) I used a leash only because he is a short dog. It's all inside though because I just don't see us using a place command anywhere else. Chase can place now without guidance.

 

[tmricciuto]

I'm teaching my girls place with just the collar also. It's a sow process for sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[EverythingEnglishMastiff]

Eh it's all about motivation. Chase is easily motivated. Hank and Roxy are mostly motivated for nap time.

 

[sjdavenport]

Rhaegar's really similar to Hector. I'm sure his reaction wouldn't be as extreme as Hector's, but I think if I tried training place will physical force/placement (not actual force, I guess more physical placement than force), it would stress him out and he would never have good associations with the place command, and would probably start to have some negative feelings towards hand on the collar too. Whereas I break out some cookies and a clicker for some shaping, and he's like "heck yes, you want me to lay down on this thing? Awesome!" This was our first session attempting a formal place, apart from some very fuzzy training as a little baby. He's just a softie and responds much better to this type of training. [video=youtube;fIKMJNIJXWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKMJNIJXWA[/video]

 

[Hector]

I'm going to see if I can get a video of his negative response on a leash tomorrow. May not be able to because the place is not so bad anymore. Here's a video after I changed my technique from physically guiding to using kibble. working place with kibble - YouTube

 

[marke]

i've never had a dog that was unable to handle a correction ? personally i don't see where a negative correction would be used in teaching a dog sit , stay , come , lay down , roll over or anything like that ....... i see negative corrections having a use for dog aggression , people aggression , boundaries (an electric fence ) taking/stealing food , chewing on your furniture , pulling on the leash , peeing in the house , barking as a habit ............ negative behaviors that actually matter and need to stop ........... as far as corrections , imo , you start at the bottom and escalate to whatever the dog sees as negative ..... a dog should rebound from a correction as soon as it's over ........ the problem with many people giving corrections is most folks are angry when they give them and confuse the dog .......you don't want to correct the dog to a degree that makes him focus on the correction and not tie the correction to the behavior , because that does happen ......there is no way to properly train a dog without corrections , as there is no way to raise a child without corrections , jmo.......

 

[JamieHalverson]

marke, I think you make good points. I think there is a significant spectrum of what people consider a "correction". Some look at it as only a physical correction, like a leash correction or snap of a prong collar, or physically correcting a dog's placement, etc.

I look at a correction as any feedback that tells a dog they made the wrong choice. i.e. even while clicker training, I'll say "nope" if the dog didn't do what was expected. That could be considered a correction but it just means the wrong choice was made, then there's the opportunity to make the right choice.

I have corrected much more strongly, say for jumping up on the table or counter, a very deep, stern NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! works just fine for Yogi, but Lillie doesn't much care what I think about anything, so she needs a bit more, a physical removal and reminder that what I say goes. We'll do some obedience drills or place or something as a reminder.

I think the other thing to keep in mind is if the dog is shutting down or seeing something as a negative is that even over correcting in the sense of ratio of corrections to reward, even if the correction isn't stern, can cause a dog to see the whole thing as a negative. The right ratio is roughly 1:5. 1 correction for every 5 rewards/successes. You don't HAVE to offer corrections, obviously, if it's not needed. If you your ratio is 1:15 or no corrections at all, great, but don't go over 1:5. If you need to figure out a way to get in more successes, do that.

 

[JamieHalverson]

Also, really nice work with Hector and Rhaegar; they are both so happy, willing and focused. THAT is what I, personally, like to see in a dog working with their handler. Willingness and excitement to do as told. Most dogs really just want to know what they are supposed to be doing, and with the rigth motivation, they will do it. I need to get on "place" a lot more with both my knuckleheads...

 

[JamieHalverson]

Ok, Here are some Lillie place videos, she's 7 months old, this was about 20 minutes of place work all told. I don't think I can include the links in one post but I'll try...

The first is an escalated version of introducing place, we have done place a little bit, so wanted to move quickly through. Place(1) - YouTube

The second adds a little duration, the command, and "correction" for moving off place. I do not use a leash and collar. My dogs don't wear collars in the house and I want my commands to be taught without them so my voice and body language are the all the guidance they need. Place(2) - YouTube

The third is long and boring. Lillie's really getting it. Longer duration between treats, more distraction (enter the cat) and a few more corrections for moving off. I probably pushed her a little too long, she starts getting pretty restless at the end, but she maintained pretty well, I tried to make sure we got a lot of little rewards and success there at the end to counter the corrections.

 

[JamieHalverson]

Ok, looks like I just missed the 3rd one... Place(3) - YouTube

 

[tmricciuto]

Lillie did great. Do you use just her normal kibble for this?

My biggest problem is consistency without treats. Like I said before, neither of my girls will go into a down on command without a treat. And they only will sit about 3/4 of the time without a treat. I guess I should be training them more and not always giving treats or something like that. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[JamieHalverson]

Lillie did great. Do you use just her normal kibble for this? My biggest problem is consistency without treats. Like I said before, neither of my girls will go into a down on command without a treat. And they only will sit about 3/4 of the time without a treat. I guess I should be training them more and not always giving treats or something like that. Any advice is appreciated.

The best way it was told to me to use treats in training was to get the "slot machine effect." So once they know a command, meaning they do it 5 times out of 5, in a row, you start giving a reward ever other time, then every 3rd time, then every 5th time. Do that a few times. THEN add one of the 3 Ds, distance, duration or distraction, go back to treating each time, for 5 times, then space out treats again.

Each time you add a new requirement, you have to go back to rewarding more heavily, but you can move through that stage faster. Like if you are in your living room working on sit and the dog sits 5 times in a row, then you start spacing out treats until you are randomly giving a treat every 5 sits or so. At that point add a distraction, like take your lesson outside to the front yard. Start again by giving treats for 5 sits in a row, use your correction word or a leash pop to enforce that sit means sit even in the front yard, then start spacing out treats again.

The more places you work, and continue to proof the behavior, the more the dog realizes that sit means sit in the yard, at the vet, at the park, if a cat is walking by, whatever. But every new experience is like a whole new thing for the dog. Even with sit, but they pick it up faster and faster each time. Does that make any sense??? I'm not always good at explaining, I'll try to find some articles that do a better job than me But mainly, you need to start fading the treats and adding some corrections.

 

[tmricciuto]

That makes perfect sense. And I need to really work with them separately as opposed to together. I'll start by using a ration of their normal kibble so they don't get fat. Thanks so much.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JamieHalverson]

Oh, for this particular excercise I used diced turkey. I DO use kibble for training, but for hard stuff, I up the reward. I used kibble a lot when I first brought her home, for shaping behaviors and manners, not so much for following commands.

Don't get frustrated, just stick with it. It is a LOOONNNGGGG process. Yogi still doesn't always sit the first time he's told, and he's 3 years old, and we've been working for a year and a half... If the distraction is significant enough, it's hard for them. I would also suggest working on focus and the name game, that goes along way to speeding up the obedience training.

 

[Hector]

This article belongs here. A Silent Killer - K9 Connection