To all raw feeders...I want to switch Luna over but am nervous and overwhelmed

[bellareea320]

To all raw feeders,

Luna is 6 months old and weighs approx 69 lbs. I want to switch her to a raw diet but I have no experience in feeding this way. I want to do this right so here are a few questions because I trust you guys more then any website!


1. Is there a specific meat I should use for the actual switch (chicken or beef.ect) How long should I keep her on this meat until I switch it over to another or you can switch back and forth?
2. I read its best to switch cold turkey because it takes kibble longer to digest then raw and could mess up her system..is this true?
3. can I purchase the meat directly from the supermarket or since I'm new at this should I go online and purchase already mixed with all necessary ingredience. (I am concerned with bones and organ measurments)
4. Since she's a puppy should I feed the reccomended 10% of body weight (6.9lbs per day) and until when? If not how much?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated because I dont feel confident enough to do this on my own! Shes on earthborn which is great but her system is not 100%

Thanks, Maria

 

[ruthcatrin]

The usual starting meat is chicken. This is at least partially because the bones are light enough to make it easy for the dog to manage them till she gets used to crunching up bone. If there's a chicken allergy you may be able to start with turkey (though the bones are heavier) or rabbit. However many dogs who are allergic to chicken in kibble form aren't allergic to it in raw form

Switch cold turkey definetly. Some folks suggest fasting in between, but personally I don't see why anything more than an "overnight" fast (12hrs or so) would be nessecary, you just want to make sure the kibble is out of the stomach. I don't know that kibble takes longer to digest, or what the cause, but many dogs experience really bad digestive upset on the mix. Which doesn't mean that she might not have diarrhea for a few days while her body gets used to the switch.

You CAN purchase directly from the store, the big thing to watch for is "enhanced" meat, especially poultry. These have had "broth" added, which ups the salt content, which can screw with your dog's system. It also annoys the heck out of me cause most poultry is sold by weight and here they are adding to the weight with "broth"....As a general rule whole is better than ground as ground has been handled more and thus upping the chances of contamination with bad bacteria and the like. Though in general your raw fed dog will handle these bacterias just fine why take the chance if you don't have to? I do feed a large percentage of my organs as a ground mix though, simpley because its easier for me, and so far the boys haven't had any issues.

Rather than try to figure based on her current weight I'd start off based on her estimated ADULT weight. Lets say you expect her to weigh about 100lbs as an adult (number picked cause it makes it easy to do math off of). You'll want to start at 2-3% of that figure for her daily intake, you'll adjust this number based on her, and her body condition and how active she is. I'll use 2.5% for this example though.

2.5% of 100lbs is 2.5lbs.

Of that number 10% should be organs and 10% should be bone.

Though you may be feeding more bone than that at first, as bone acts to solidify poo, and it'll help keep her constant at first. To much bone will constipate her though, if her poo turns white within a couple hours of going, or is whiteish and crumbly when she goes, or she gets constipated then reduce the bone content. Every dog is different, some need a bit more bone to stay normal, some need a bit less. Apollo needs a little bone every day to stay normal, other dogs only get bone once a week or so (as one big boney meal, usually in combination with their organs).

Organs, not more than 1/2 should be liver, the rest made up of as many other organs as you can source. NOTE: heart is MUSCLE not organ, and should not be counted as part of the organ 10%. Again adjust by what works for your dog. More organ with darken/soften the poo. Some dogs do ok getting an organ meal every day, others get fed a big organ and bone meal once a week cause otherwise they get the runs from the organs. Go with what works.

Generally the prefered method to switch is cold turkey to chicken (necks, backs, thighs), with as high a muscle meat content as her system will tolerate. She probly WILL have diarrhea at first, but she's young enough I bet she'll make the transition pretty quick. Once her poo is nice and solid and you've been able to drop the bone content to approx 10% daily (days to weeks depending on the dog), you can either add organs or add in another meat type, again wait till she's normal again, and add a new meat type, and so on and so forth.

If you don't have a kitchen scale you'll want one, though after a while you do become better able to figure what she'll need without one.

And I'm probly forgetting something, other's will add their theorys, and don't be afraid to ask more questions!

 

[bellareea320]

Ok so Ill start with feeding her 2.5 lbs of meat per day. I'll start with chicken, and go with the 12 hour fast.

Say I go to the store for arguments sake and by a whole chicken thats 2.5 lbs with organs in it. I ll cut it in half and give her everything on the half including organs for both meals but then the next day should I take all the organs out and how do I know if I go with this method how much of the bone shes actually getting? and should I take the meat off the big bones or leave it on. The bone and organ thing is the hardest part for me to figure out. I cook alot so the meat part is easy. Now when I change to say beef..i can buy all cuts but where can I get the organs and if using say chopped meat what do I use for the bones? To be honest I would like to buy her food and pick it out myself but at the same time I am trying to figure out the most realistic way of doing this. I usually go to the butcher for my meat but I dont think this method would be cost efficent for her with certain cuts especially with his beef prices. But maybe I could ask him for organs and bone then weigh it with my scale!!!!!I would love to go and buy bulk because I have a huge freezer and storage is not an issue. Thanks Ruth for helping me youve made it alot easier!!!!! eventually I could just prep her meals in frezzer bags and take each meal out the night before its just the intial start up

 

[angelbears]

Congrats! Raw is super easy so no need to worry. One mantra you will hear is "balance over time" In other words if you didn't feed liver this week that is okay you can catch up the rest of the month. The month before and after Christmas our dogs meals consisted of roughly 75% turkey but the rest of the year it is only about 10%. Ruth gave you an excellent start so I will just throw out some random thoughts.

A freezer is a must for those with large dogs. Especially, for times like Xmas when we were able to stock up on turkey for .29 a pound. Be careful of weight bearing bones. They can break a dogs tooth.

Some dogs are reluctant to eat raw at first, don't give up. They will not starve! Cane is a very picky eater. We usually have to present something that is new to him 3 or 4 times but once he gets used to it he generally loves it. BTW, he was the same way with kibble, he would only eat enough to survive. With raw he can't wait to eat. Organs can be more tricky. Some dogs just never will eat it raw. Our pack is a mixed lot, some will, some won't. So, we do our organ meals on weekend mornings and saute it very lightly in a very small amount of butter. It's one of their favorite meals.

Find a drug dealer for doggie crack (tripe). It is not a must for a balanced diet but dogs go ape shit over it. It is gross and stinks to high heaven but to watch the big butts start to wiggle when you get it out is well worth it. Chicken feet are great for treats and are excellent for joint health. Plus they are cheap compared to any processed treats you can buy.

Once you have introduced a meat and they have adjusted to it you can feed it whenever you like. It is not uncommon for our dogs to have 2 or 3 different meats for one meal.

There are no stupid questions, so as Ruth said ask away. There is almost always someone on line that will try to help.

 

[ruthcatrin]

For something the size of chicken, turkey etc any bone on the body is fine to eat. By the time you get to something the size of a cow (or larger pigs) weight baring bones are iffy to outright bad for their teeth, and a buffalo neck bone is hard enough Apollo just knawed a bit and turned up his nose. However pork necks are often easily accessable and an easy form of bone, as are turkey and chicken necks. Once you've intro'ed her to multiple meats you can mix and match as it works for you and her. My bone is usually pork necks with some poultry, my organs are mixture of beef and chicken (though we've got buffalo liver at the moment lol), meat is whatever I've got today.

Buying food: For anything you can't source locally I highly recommend Hare Today. But you will have to pay shipping, so see what you can find local. I get pork necks $0.84/lb for a 30lb case from my local food wholesaler, I can also get poultry necks and stew beef from them for good prices. My local grocery has had "goat cubes" for cheap lately (about 50/50 bone/meat) so I've been stocking up on that for alternatives to the pork necks. Talk to the butcher about getting cases of heart or liver or necks, sometimes they'll be able to do that and you'll get a discount for buying the case.

Don't be afraid to hit craigslist. I've a constantly running ad stating I'll take freezer burnt meats of any kind, as well meats that have sat in the fridge one day to long (ie: expiration was yesterday sort of thing). I find folks are almost always delighted to find that their lazyness won't result in teh food going to waste, and it only costs me the gas to go pick it up. I don't get LOTS this way, but I've gotten enough to make it worth while. Dogs don't care if its freezerburnt, and as long as it doesn't smell horrid and isn't making the package balloon out its safe for them to eat.

I do break things down to a couple days worth, or meal portions (depending on what it is), and freeze it that way. Most of it I keep thawed a couple days worth at a time, but some things Apollo prefers frozen, his chicken quarters for example.

 

[NYDDB]

All the above info is great--- not much to add. Except that if at first when you do introduce some new protein/organ and they refuse it, wait awhile and try again.

That worked for my dog. At first he would not touch beef kidney or fresh whole fish. I waited a few weeks and what do you know: he ate them both, not an issue.

It may seems confusing to jump in at first, but try not to over-think things; it really is a simple way to feed- and your dog will benefit tremendously.

And yeah-- about the tripe...it IS like doggy crack! And also very good for their digestive system.

 

[ruthcatrin]

LIver, both my boys love it regardless, but when I dehydrate it they swear its a massively high value treat. Don't be afraid to play around with how you feed the organs if nessecary. Completely raw is best yes, but what counts is that they're getting it.

 

[bellareea320]

Just looked on Hare today and I can get all organs here!!. Im still going to look at the local stores first but at least I know I can buy in bulk and save it for each meal. Ok its looking brighter!!! Im gonna do this!

Ab: Thanks for the info! I was so worried about giving the wrong proportions but I will get it down to a science soon. I've heard some dogs wont eat for up to two -three days during the switch, but I aways give her dog bones from my butcher that has raw meat on it and she LOVES it. Just now had raw chicken out getting it ready for dinner and she goes crazy for the smell. This is why I figured I would go this route and help her stomach and skin with raw. Its a little overwhelming at first as is anyting new out of someones comfort zone but I know she will totally benefit from this.

 

[ruthcatrin]

Its not as hard as it first seems honest. Once you get into the run, and get used to it, its actually quite simple.

And yes, Hare Today rocks. I buy a large percentage of my organs from her as I have trouble sourcing organs other than liver locally.

Good luck!

 

[musicdeb]

If you have trouble with Luna eating liver (do not start the organs meats for at least a month), bake the liver for about 25 minutes on 350. Titan doesn't eat it raw so I bake it and he loves it.

If Luna does like the chicken at first, try searing it. This helped Titan.

Add chicken feet to her diet, great for her joints.

 

[mcarrel]

Great advice here from everyone as always. As for being nervous that's normal at first. I switched my dog to raw when my old Great Pyrenees refused to have anything to do with kibble when she turned 10. She did fantastic on it. I loved the results so much I am raising my Dogue puppy on raw. With him I was very nervous with the whole proper calcium/phosphorous etc. But he is doing great as well and now the idea of scooping out kibble would seem bizarre to me. I used to weigh everything and drive myself nuts now I can pretty much lay it out and don't need the scale. I do add fish oil and vitamin e since I'm not feeding grass fed beef etc. Some dogs don't like organs but I get mine to eat them slightly frozen.

 

[angelbears]

Bell, I had walked away from my pc after I had started my post, came back and didn't realize you had posted again so my post may seem disjointed. The thing about getting the ratio of meat and bone right bothers most everybody at first. Let the poop be your guide. Loose runny poop add a little more bone. Blowing dust out the butt or hard crumbly poop add more pure meat.

To give you an idea, here is one days feeding for Cane, don't forget he is a fully transitioned. I feed twice a day, to help prevent bloat. Cane is 170 pounds and get 3 pounds a day not including snacks. The morning meal is 1 1/2 pounds of pure meat. Yesterday, it was pork chunks cut off a pork shoulder. His late afternoon meal is when I give bone and he had 1 1/2 pounds consisting of one chicken thigh and a couple of turkey necks. Now this is a little more bone than the 10% but today for his bony meal I will do a couple of turkey neck and about 1/2 pound of boneless pork, "Balance over time".

There is a government website that gives you the bone content of each cut of meat. I will try to find that for you or if someone knows it, maybe they could post it.

I live in Texas, where meat is pretty cheap but below are some of the cuts of meat that I get from the grocery store and are staples of my dogs diet.

Pork picnics/ shoulders bone in, .97 cents lb. The bone is too big for my guys so I cut all the meat off and save the bone for cooking beans for us.

Pork spareribs $1.47 Cut off as many ribs as needed and fed as a bony meal.

Beef brisket $1.47 I cut into chunks and feed as a meaty meal.

Ground beef $1.59 to 1.99 A lot of people don't like to do ground but I will use it when I run out of beef brisket or heart.

Chicken whole or quarters whatever is the cheapest at the time $.39 to .59. Watch sodium content.

The above is what I can at my local grocery store. I watch the adds and when one is on sale I will stock up. BTW, those are sale prices not everyday prices.

The brisket and picnics have a lot of fat. Feed as much of the fat as your dog can tolerate. Once again let the poop be your guide. Mine have no problems with it.

 

[bellareea320]

AB thanks so much!!! Im going today and checking everything out at the store then if I cant find anything i'll order it from hare today. Hopefully I can get everything so I can start asap.

A big thanks to everyone that gave great advice. Honestly I would have never considered raw unless I was on here, knowing that everyone would give great advice. Luna thanks you too!!

 

[angelbears]

Be careful, scouting meat becomes an addiction. Once you become a little more comfortable you can start checking ethnic markets, wholesale, family farms, ect. There are many ways to help keep the cost down if you want to.

Good luck and have fun!

PS. It's cold enough during the winter where you are to get Luna a pigs head. I can't wait to hear and see pictures with that one. LOL Gross becomes fun and the norm!

 

[bellareea320]

i actually found a doggy butcher not to far from my house. His prices are higher then the store but If i include shipping from hare today it costs the same. I,m so excited!!! He has almost evrything and sells by the case (50lbs) so Im going tomorrow Ill post back and let you know how it is!!!!

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

oh by the way found pigs feet and necks for $1.70 lbs at out local pathmart. Now remember I'm paying NY prices so I'm assuming it will be higher then anywhere else

 

[bellareea320]

oh by the way found pigs feet and necks for $1.70 lbs at out local pathmart. Now remember I'm paying NY prices so I'm assuming it will be higher then anywhere else

 

[ruthcatrin]

For NY prices thats not bad. Do some digging for a food or meat wholesaler though, you might be able to get them cheaper.

 

[Oak Hill Farm]

Nothing to add, you have gotten excellent advice, just wanted to offer encouragement! It really is easier than it seems at first.

 

[angelbears]

Not sure of your proximity to Hare Today but I have to add about .60 a pound to cover shipping. Of course the closer you are the cheaper and in the winter you can choose longer shipping times.

 

[bellareea320]

YAHOOO!!!! I started today and she is actually ate everything and loves the chicken..... But she keeps taking it out of her bowl and eating it through our house! EWWWW I keep taking it back and putting it in her bowl. The meat is in the bowl but the bones she takesout! I helped her alittle by chopping it up a bit to make it easier and I took off the skin dont know if this is ok? Should I just keep taking it from her and put it back in her bowl and eventually she;ll understand it has to stay there? I am so excited hopefully tomorrow morning will be the same. OH I got the chicken on sale for .99 cents a pound plus they had chicken liver on sale and pork necks. So excited!!!