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I'm going to get a professional behaviorist.

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Anyway, I do appreciate all the input. And I thought others would be interested in my experience with a behaviorist vs a trainer. Especially the other TM owners who might benefit from hearing about any creative and effective training methods she might have.

Absolutely!
 

mountainfila

Well-Known Member
When we are walking, I'll put her on the side opposite the approaching dog. I'll tell her 'leave it' and give her a sharp leash correction to the side as soon as soon I see her focusing too much on the other dog. Does that sound like what I should be doing? That generally works well and we can keep moving without too much drama. Making her sit does not work as well.

I try to find people walking dogs and follow them so she can get used to being near dogs and not having a negative reaction. She's fine following dogs. If there are other dogs in the pet store, I'll circle her around the outside isles and put her in a sit where she can see the dog. Again, just so she can practice being near a dog without reacting to it. The pet store people give her treats when she sits so that's some positive reinforcement for her. She will take treats from them in the store. Out on the sidewalk, she will not take them or will spit them out. So.

I think choking the dog is harsh. We use a martingale. I have it set to be uncomfortable but if I need to drag her away from something, it's not going to cut off her air. We do have to stop a lot and reposition it so it's high enough to be effective. She's pretty furry. I've tried a prong, it makes her worse. I mean, she can't pull toward the dog but her aggression level goes way up.

If she learns to ignore the dogs while we are up and moving, will that translate to ignoring them when we are sitting or standing still? Should I do something different if we are sitting down?

Is it enough for her to ignore them even though she still hates them? I'm really interested in why she acts the way she does.

Well i see from your first sentence that you are triggering her to go up a notch when you move her to the other side, that is when you become tense and she takes over. When you walk her , does she listen to you at all, like when im walking my dogs they look up at me for direction, i look back at them and tell them good dog good heel. If they see some one in the distance and they start to focus on it, i tell them NO!, HEEL if they do not break focus and glance up at me they get corrected and i move them back into the heel if they have not done it.

Its hard to give advice without seeing you walk her, but i still think going back to the basics to get her to focus on you some what is the place to start. When you are out walking do not move her but make her follow you when another dog is coming towards you, if she focus on something tell her NO and say it with force and go in the opposite direction a few steps, turn around tell her to heel put her in the heel and walk on if she focus again do the same thing. You have done it her way for to long , now its time to do it YOUR way, you are the human and need to let her know that when the leash is on she must listen to you, you are in control not her. I use words that come out with force like HEY, NO, A (like saying act without the ct on the end) as i say them i give a quick jerk to the leash, trust me she will look at you. As soon as you change your mindset that you are in control and not her you will see a change. It doesnt matter if she wont work for treats or praise etc make her do it and when she does do what you want still tell her shes a good dog and give her a pet and continue.
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
Well i see from your first sentence that you are triggering her to go up a notch when you move her to the other side, that is when you become tense and she takes over. When you walk her , does she listen to you at all, like when im walking my dogs they look up at me for direction, i look back at them and tell them good dog good heel. If they see some one in the distance and they start to focus on it, i tell them NO!, HEEL if they do not break focus and glance up at me they get corrected and i move them back into the heel if they have not done it.

Its hard to give advice without seeing you walk her, but i still think going back to the basics to get her to focus on you some what is the place to start. When you are out walking do not move her but make her follow you when another dog is coming towards you, if she focus on something tell her NO and say it with force and go in the opposite direction a few steps, turn around tell her to heel put her in the heel and walk on if she focus again do the same thing. You have done it her way for to long , now its time to do it YOUR way, you are the human and need to let her know that when the leash is on she must listen to you, you are in control not her. I use words that come out with force like HEY, NO, A (like saying act without the ct on the end) as i say them i give a quick jerk to the leash, trust me she will look at you. As soon as you change your mindset that you are in control and not her you will see a change. It doesnt matter if she wont work for treats or praise etc make her do it and when she does do what you want still tell her shes a good dog and give her a pet and continue.

I have worked with her like you are describing and as long as the approaching dog isn't too close, she responds like you are saying. We've done focus exercises with her since day one.

There comes a point where nothing I say or do will get her focus back. And again, this is very typical for her breed. It's not a lack of effort on my part. Certainly, I'm willing to do more focus exercises if that's what it takes. I just want you to know that this is something we work on and always have.


I've tried the turning in the opposite direction thing. When I do that, she gets worse. I think because now the approaching dog is behind her. I will literally have to drag her gagging body down the street. Like I said, she's in a snug martingale right up behind her ears. It's effective leverage against her pulling anywhere but she'll hang herself from it before she stops trying to get to dogs that are too close or who are acting aggressively toward her. She is very serious about keeping an eye on things that she perceives as a threat. Making her sit has the same effect.

Keeping her moving forward and past the dog has so far been the most effective way to deal with her. I put her on the other side(and keep in mind that I notice the other dogs way before she does) so I am between her and the other dog. Not because I can't control her but because I don't trust the other owners to keep their dog on a short leash. Remember I'm talking about a sidewalk, there just isn't that much room between us. She's used to being on either side of me so I hope that the act of moving her isn't triggering her to the presence of another dog. Also, I don't move her and tighten up the leash. If moving her is the issue, I'll stop doing it and have her wear a muzzle so she doesn't snatch up a small dog.

Once the dog is past us and moving away, she'll make one or two efforts to get another look at it before going back to her normal walk. And I correct her for that too.

I do praise her whenever she is doing what I want. But please remember that my dog does not care about what I think. They've been bred to make their own decisions without input from humans.

Again, I am fully open to the idea that she is reacting to something I'm doing. But because I realize that she takes her clues from me, I try to project all the right signals. So if I'm doing something wrong, I don't know exactly what it is. And I don't really feel like I'm not in control of her. Her behavior never gets her anywhere. It's not like she wins anything when she acts out, and she's nowhere close to being able to overpower me. Is there more to it than that? Does it just take a long time before they get the point?

As per Hector's advice, I've started keeping her in a much stricter position when we walk. That and the turning around has really helped with her pulling. We were doing the stop and wait for her to look at me thing but she was happy to do that all day. And for dogs across the street or dogs crossing our path more than 15 feet or so away, keeping her moving and correcting her works fine. She just came off of a month and a half bout of pano so she wasn't getting out as much. Maybe using the stricter walk regimen will help with the dog reactivity, but we haven't been doing it long enough.

Most of the dog reactivity advice involves counter-conditioning and gradually moving closer to other dogs. That is what we were trying. Because I have nothing to bribe her with, there wasn't much progress. So now, we want to try something else and get some outside advice to point out our mistakes and try to understand why she is reactive to other dogs. Is it just a dog aggression issue or is it a dominance issue? Maybe she's just overexcited. Remember, once she's done posturing she'll get along with other dogs for the most part. Does it even matter? Maybe I'm too worried about the why, but that's how I roll.

I'm hoping an actual behaviorist can pinpoint what is triggering her so I can direct my efforts in the right place. I will certainly let you all know what she says. It will be interesting at any rate.

If nothing works, I'll ship her to you and get a poodle. :p
 

DennasMom

Well-Known Member
Oh, and thanks to all of you for the advice and input. It would be nice if you all lived in my neighborhood so you could observe us. :p

I'll offer up again... Denna and I could meet you somewhere... I could stay far away and just take video, if you think that would help, too...
No excuse, now!! :)
 

mountainfila

Well-Known Member
I dont know what kind of martingale you are using but they do not fit snug when they are sized properly, the rings on either end of the strap should just touch to make it the size of the dogs neck when the chain part is fully extended , so that means when the leash is relaxed the chain opens and the collar gets a little larger, it should not be snug unless you have no slack in the leash then it will be tight as she will be pulling forward and you are pulling backwards which intensifies her reaction. If you are dragging her your not correcting her, there is no slack in the leash just tension. And when i said to not switch sides, i dont mean walk her 2 feet from the other dog, you have to make decisions as to were to go, go as far out as possible, go around a parked car, you are in control. Yes i have dealt with a hound , a performance bred redbone coonhound, they are also bred to be independent thinkers, i battled her for 10 long years. you may feel in control but you may be portraying weak body language to her. I hope im not offending you in anyway, im just trying to help as are other people, you may be doing all the right things but may be off with the timing of the correction, i hope the behaviourist can shed some light on the issue. You said she had pano, so im assuming she is still a pup, how old is she? I thought she was much older, which makes a difference.

Oh god no lol dont ship her to me hahahaha i would be in a corner rocking back in forth mumbling something like " the hair , the hair oh my god the hair" hahahaha i only do short haired dogs and even that drives me nuts.
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
Anyway, I do appreciate all the input. And I thought others would be interested in my experience with a behaviorist vs a trainer. Especially the other TM owners who might benefit from hearing about any creative and effective training methods she might have.

I for one appreciate it very much, especially being new to this breed. I'm looking forward to hearing what happens with the behaviorist/trainer. Have been a little preoccupied the past 2 days with Ivy's surgery but just trying to catch up with this thread now. I completely agree with you on the harsh training methods. One example: I had a puppy trainer come to the house 3 times to work with Ivy, when she was too little for puppy class (hadn't had enough shots). Overall this is a great trainer and I loved her. She had a lot of great behavior management techniques that were super valuable - she completely solved our puppy-biting problem which was making every human in the house completely miserable. She had some good methods. However, she hadn't worked with TMs (had encountered a few but not trained them). Some things, she really just didn't realize would NOT work with this breed. We worked on loose-leash walking one day in our yard. I explained that even with the harness on, sometimes (actually often) Ivy would sit down and refuse to move. I actually switched to the harness because the buckle collar, she'd just duck her head and pull out of. So Ivy did this little thing we used to call the "Ivy roll." She learned really quickly that the harness would get tight around her chest when I pulled the leash. So when I'd give a quick tug, to get her to move in my direction, she'd sort of do a little hop, fall on her side and roll over. I think she figured out that relieved the pressure of the harness, plus then she was lying down and I couldn't get her to go anywhere. She did this in front of the trainer and I said, "Okay, what do I do now?" The trainer told me to drag her. I just looked at her and said, "That is not going to work with Ivy." She said, sure it will, dogs hate to be dragged. Well, guess what - Ivy does in fact hate to be dragged (and I don't blame her one bit) but being a TM, she damn well did let me drag her halfway across the yard. I finally stopped and the trainer said, "Hmm. I've never seen a dog do that before."

Yep. Anyway, I'm just trying to illustrate (and agree with you, broccolini) that the harsh training methods don't necessarily work with "our" breed. And that not everyone realizes this. I myself am very guilty of coming to this forum while we were still considering whether to bring Ivy home and also finding other articles online, reading how "different" TMs are and saying, yeah, yeah, whatever. They can't be THAT different from other dogs. I learned pretty quickly that YES THEY CAN, and YES THEY ARE. I'm willing to put in as much work as it takes to train Ivy to the point that I need her to get to, while recognizing that we have limitations - with the recall, just as one example - so things are working out fine for now. She's a fabulous dog and I am completely in love with her. But anyone that tells me I'm not doing it right just might not be getting it and I suspect that might possibly be the case with some of the replies here (not flaming, just suggesting).

Anyway ... whew ... good luck and I do really want to hear how this all works out for you.
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
I'll offer up again... Denna and I could meet you somewhere... I could stay far away and just take video, if you think that would help, too...
No excuse, now!! :)

Sorry, I missed this the first time.

Yes, we should set something up.

Poor Denna, the sacrificial lamb...
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
I dont know what kind of martingale you are using but they do not fit snug when they are sized properly, the rings on either end of the strap should just touch to make it the size of the dogs neck when the chain part is fully extended , so that means when the leash is relaxed the chain opens and the collar gets a little larger, it should not be snug unless you have no slack in the leash then it will be tight as she will be pulling forward and you are pulling backwards which intensifies her reaction. If you are dragging her your not correcting her, there is no slack in the leash just tension. And when i said to not switch sides, i dont mean walk her 2 feet from the other dog, you have to make decisions as to were to go, go as far out as possible, go around a parked car, you are in control. Yes i have dealt with a hound , a performance bred redbone coonhound, they are also bred to be independent thinkers, i battled her for 10 long years. you may feel in control but you may be portraying weak body language to her. I hope im not offending you in anyway, im just trying to help as are other people, you may be doing all the right things but may be off with the timing of the correction, i hope the behaviourist can shed some light on the issue. You said she had pano, so im assuming she is still a pup, how old is she? I thought she was much older, which makes a difference.

Oh god no lol dont ship her to me hahahaha i would be in a corner rocking back in forth mumbling something like " the hair , the hair oh my god the hair" hahahaha i only do short haired dogs and even that drives me nuts.

By snug I mean that when it's tightened, it's tight enough to be uncomfortable. It's not still loose with the rings touching. It's adjustable. Are you saying I should make it looser? So that when I correct her it doesn't actually tighten on her neck?

I stop switching sides and see if that helps too. Should I muzzle her? I really do live in the land of happy, flexi-lead dogs whose owners think all dogs should be super-duper friendly. :p

I know that dragging her is not an effective correction. When I correct her and she still pulls toward another dog what should I do? Do I need to let out slack in the leash so I can pop it again?

Yes, I hope the behaviorist will be able to point out what I am doing wrong. There's only me and the dog so one of us is the problem. I'm not offended at all. Like I said, I just can't figure out what I'm doing to make her act out.

She is 17 months old and only sheds once a year. :)
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
Heh, they're addicitive aren't they?

Yep. Three months into owning my first and I'm not sure I'll ever want another kind of dog. Already considering emailing Susie in Virginia to check on waiting lists for her litters ... but don't tell my husband; he'll kill me ... our house is only 1800 sq ft!
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Yep. Anyway, I'm just trying to illustrate (and agree with you, broccolini) that the harsh training methods don't necessarily work with "our" breed. And that not everyone realizes this. I myself am very guilty of coming to this forum while we were still considering whether to bring Ivy home and also finding other articles online, reading how "different" TMs are and saying, yeah, yeah, whatever. They can't be THAT different from other dogs. I learned pretty quickly that YES THEY CAN, and YES THEY ARE. I'm willing to put in as much work as it takes to train Ivy to the point that I need her to get to, while recognizing that we have limitations - with the recall, just as one example - so things are working out fine for now. She's a fabulous dog and I am completely in love with her. But anyone that tells me I'm not doing it right just might not be getting it and I suspect that might possibly be the case with some of the replies here (not flaming, just suggesting).

Its a really common problem really. I think MOST people won't get it unless they've worked with a primitive or LGD type dog. It just gets REALLY REALLY FRUSTRATING to deal with on occasion.
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
She's a fabulous dog and I am completely in love with her. But anyone that tells me I'm not doing it right just might not be getting it and I suspect that might possibly be the case with some of the replies here (not flaming, just suggesting).

Anyway ... whew ... good luck and I do really want to hear how this all works out for you.

Yeah. And I told Ruth that I feel like I'm whining about my special snowflake dog who just isn't like the other dogs. But she really does not train like other dogs.

We had a trainer try a choke chain on Athena and she flat out refused to engage with anyone or anything. It was a good two days before she got over that. I've never seen a dog hold a grudge like that before.

So I'm going to do my best to make sure I find the least aversive training methods I can to work with her. If more intense corrections are the answer, I'll go with that but only if nothing else works. I figure the behaviorist should have some clever ideas that I would never think of. Because that's her job and all. :p

From the time they were small pups, both of mine would sit and watch anything new on walks. No amount of tugging, or bribery was going to get them to move. They are so serious about their guarding. And so smart. It's a little creepy to watch them think stuff through.
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
Yep. Three months into owning my first and I'm not sure I'll ever want another kind of dog. Already considering emailing Susie in Virginia to check on waiting lists for her litters ... but don't tell my husband; he'll kill me ... our house is only 1800 sq ft!

You've got to go down there and meet Aslan if you haven't already (he's my Apollo's brother). We've only got just under 1300 square feet here, with a TM, and a New Guinea Singing Dog, and yup, another TM will likely happen in the next couple years. Almost happened just now but apparently it wasn't meant to be *sigh*
 

broccolini

Well-Known Member
Its a really common problem really. I think MOST people won't get it unless they've worked with a primitive or LGD type dog. It just gets REALLY REALLY FRUSTRATING to deal with on occasion.

The clicker training guy who worked with Malinois insisted that we could achieve 100% recall if we just worked at it.

Don't get me wrong, I love clicker training and it's lots of fun for the dogs in the house but they don't give a rat's ass about that thing outside. :p
 

Ronin

Active Member
I for one appreciate it very much, especially being new to this breed. I'm looking forward to hearing what happens with the behaviorist/trainer. Have been a little preoccupied the past 2 days with Ivy's surgery but just trying to catch up with this thread now. I completely agree with you on the harsh training methods. One example: I had a puppy trainer come to the house 3 times to work with Ivy, when she was too little for puppy class (hadn't had enough shots). Overall this is a great trainer and I loved her. She had a lot of great behavior management techniques that were super valuable - she completely solved our puppy-biting problem which was making every human in the house completely miserable. She had some good methods. However, she hadn't worked with TMs (had encountered a few but not trained them). Some things, she really just didn't realize would NOT work with this breed. We worked on loose-leash walking one day in our yard. I explained that even with the harness on, sometimes (actually often) Ivy would sit down and refuse to move. I actually switched to the harness because the buckle collar, she'd just duck her head and pull out of. So Ivy did this little thing we used to call the "Ivy roll." She learned really quickly that the harness would get tight around her chest when I pulled the leash. So when I'd give a quick tug, to get her to move in my direction, she'd sort of do a little hop, fall on her side and roll over. I think she figured out that relieved the pressure of the harness, plus then she was lying down and I couldn't get her to go anywhere. She did this in front of the trainer and I said, "Okay, what do I do now?" The trainer told me to drag her. I just looked at her and said, "That is not going to work with Ivy." She said, sure it will, dogs hate to be dragged. Well, guess what - Ivy does in fact hate to be dragged (and I don't blame her one bit) but being a TM, she damn well did let me drag her halfway across the yard. I finally stopped and the trainer said, "Hmm. I've never seen a dog do that before."

Yep. Anyway, I'm just trying to illustrate (and agree with you, broccolini) that the harsh training methods don't necessarily work with "our" breed. And that not everyone realizes this. I myself am very guilty of coming to this forum while we were still considering whether to bring Ivy home and also finding other articles online, reading how "different" TMs are and saying, yeah, yeah, whatever. They can't be THAT different from other dogs. I learned pretty quickly that YES THEY CAN, and YES THEY ARE. I'm willing to put in as much work as it takes to train Ivy to the point that I need her to get to, while recognizing that we have limitations - with the recall, just as one example - so things are working out fine for now. She's a fabulous dog and I am completely in love with her. But anyone that tells me I'm not doing it right just might not be getting it and I suspect that might possibly be the case with some of the replies here (not flaming, just suggesting).

Anyway ... whew ... good luck and I do really want to hear how this all works out for you.

I respectfully agree to disagree...I've seen it done with "your" breed. What you call "harsh" others would call humane, because the alternative can very well be euthanasia if you can't control your dog and it hurts someone or another dog. Why even post if your gonna have a closed mind and shut out suggestions from experienced people?

Ahhh...oh well...I am now blue in the face. I do wish the best of luck anyway. Especially if I'm ever in the vicinity with my dogs. My mother and brother live in WA...
 

ruthcatrin

Well-Known Member
I respectfully agree to disagree...I've seen it done with "your" breed. What you call "harsh" others would call humane, because the alternative can very well be euthanasia if you can't control your dog and it hurts someone or another dog. Why even post if your gonna have a closed mind and shut out suggestions from experienced people?

Ahhh...oh well...I am now blue in the face. I do wish the best of luck anyway. Especially if I'm ever in the vicinity with my dogs. My mother and brother live in WA...

Because you've proved you're not as experienced as you apparently think you are? Not to mention rude. Never mind there's a HUGE divide between not being able to control your dog and what Broc's describing.
 
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elastigirl

Well-Known Member
You've got to go down there and meet Aslan if you haven't already (he's my Apollo's brother). We've only got just under 1300 square feet here, with a TM, and a New Guinea Singing Dog, and yup, another TM will likely happen in the next couple years. Almost happened just now but apparently it wasn't meant to be *sigh*

I would love to, have looked at the pictures and he's amazing!
 

elastigirl

Well-Known Member
Yeah. And I told Ruth that I feel like I'm whining about my special snowflake dog who just isn't like the other dogs. But she really does not train like other dogs.

We had a trainer try a choke chain on Athena and she flat out refused to engage with anyone or anything. It was a good two days before she got over that. I've never seen a dog hold a grudge like that before.

So I'm going to do my best to make sure I find the least aversive training methods I can to work with her. If more intense corrections are the answer, I'll go with that but only if nothing else works. I figure the behaviorist should have some clever ideas that I would never think of. Because that's her job and all. :p

From the time they were small pups, both of mine would sit and watch anything new on walks. No amount of tugging, or bribery was going to get them to move. They are so serious about their guarding. And so smart. It's a little creepy to watch them think stuff through.

Yes. I think you described them earlier as single-minded (or might have been someone else, not sure). Once they get their minds set on something, it's so hard to redirect them. I could have a huge juicy piece of chicken in my hand (and I have) and it won't stop Ivy from going off barking at some imaginary noise outside. If I give in and take her out and walk her around, however, to show her there's no threat - well then okay, mama, we can go back inside now, I'm good. ;-)

Just one example, I'm sure we all have many more!
 

Ronin

Active Member
Because you've proved you're not as experienced as you apparently think you are? Not to mention rude. Never mind there's a HUGE divide between not being able to control your dog and what Broc's describing.

If by rude you mean concerned, then you're right. You have no idea the experience I have, but I guarantee it buries your, lady. I can clearly see it from your comments...hahaha...pleeeease! Some people just have no business owning breeds that they cannot handle... Aloha