Jadotha
Well-Known Member
@ Cody.
You bring up some very valid points -- certainly the true knowledge and competence of the judge is critical in getting objective and sensible assessments of dogs presented in the ring against standard. I think this is particularly important for new AKC registered breeds such as the CC.
Re: Your story about the judge googling CC standards:
I found this shocking, and it prompted me to look at the AKC and CKC judges' approval processes. If what I interpreted is correct, when judges have been approved to judge Groups, if a new breed such as the CC is recognised as part of that group, they do not have to undergo and further testing or other 'qualification' to judge that specific breed. !!!! Which would certainly explain your experience with the judge googling the standard at the 11th hour.:slapme: And obviously, such grossly incompetent judging can compromise the value and meaning of points and championships.
AGREE!
Well, I would never advise that people purchase a pup based on a breeder showing a couple of times -- OR exclusively on the presence of champions in a pedigree. That is why I suggested an entire page of 'red flags'. It is one important criterion. In my view, people need to educate themselves on bloodlines, and what to look for amongst champions and individuals in a pedigree. There are 'high volume' breeders out there with studs who had illustrious careers in the show ring. As one example the brilliant Ch.Semper Fi Groppetti Gargoyle (in the EM world) won BOB at Westminster twice, and sired 36 champions (probably more than that by now, as his semen continued to be sold after his death until quite recently. However, he was bred extensively and his name shows up in a large number (at least hundreds if not thousands) of today's pedigrees. So they can't all be superstars. Rightly, or wrongly, my opinion is that this is a 'puppy mill' approach, which people should avoid. Hence other red flags should be equally attended to, and questions asked: What are their breeding goals/vision and plans? (And so on, not to reproduce my original list)How many litters does the breeder produce a year? If it is more than a couple, definite red flag. (If a 'reputable breeder' is churning out multiple litters each year, then in my mind they are NOT a reputable breeder). The main differences I see between them and a 'byb' are the facts that usually there is some good stock involved, and the sheer scale of the operation.
In some ways, with our current EM puppy, I've violated a lot of my own advice to others. My pup's parents were not health tested (although grandparents, great grandparents etc were). Neither parent was shown, although they were evaluated, and in the five generations of his pedigree, there are five champions. However, before even thinking about looking for a puppy, I spent over two years studying the Mastiff -- including breed standard, type, and extensive analysis of bloodlines -- looking in countless archives to find pictures and information on accomplishments, longeivity, and health problems of individuals through generations of lines that interested me. What my breeder did have going for her: She had a vision , and had scrimped, saved and sacrificed to obtain the lines she needed to realise it.
@ Dogman
I think the situation is far worse with breeds such as the Fila which are not yet recognised by the AKC --or at least by a single body. I couldn't believe the degree of controversy between CAFIB and CBKC, and I can see exactly what you mean. I never really thought that much about Filas until I joined this forum. Then you Fila peeps piqued my intereest and I began looking at the CAFIB and breeders' sites (and after your last post, the CBKC's). As I understand it the CBKC is the 'official' kennel club (?). Looking at breeders' pictures, I see dogs ranging from lean, athletic looking dogs with what I would describe as a 'dry' (Arab horse terminology) bloodhound-y head; heavier- set dogs with a bloodhound-y head with lots of loose skin and wrinkles; Heavier yet dogs with a shorter, more EM or Neo like head.......crikey, what a dilemma.
You bring up some very valid points -- certainly the true knowledge and competence of the judge is critical in getting objective and sensible assessments of dogs presented in the ring against standard. I think this is particularly important for new AKC registered breeds such as the CC.
Re: Your story about the judge googling CC standards:
I found this shocking, and it prompted me to look at the AKC and CKC judges' approval processes. If what I interpreted is correct, when judges have been approved to judge Groups, if a new breed such as the CC is recognised as part of that group, they do not have to undergo and further testing or other 'qualification' to judge that specific breed. !!!! Which would certainly explain your experience with the judge googling the standard at the 11th hour.:slapme: And obviously, such grossly incompetent judging can compromise the value and meaning of points and championships.
AGREE!
Well, I would never advise that people purchase a pup based on a breeder showing a couple of times -- OR exclusively on the presence of champions in a pedigree. That is why I suggested an entire page of 'red flags'. It is one important criterion. In my view, people need to educate themselves on bloodlines, and what to look for amongst champions and individuals in a pedigree. There are 'high volume' breeders out there with studs who had illustrious careers in the show ring. As one example the brilliant Ch.Semper Fi Groppetti Gargoyle (in the EM world) won BOB at Westminster twice, and sired 36 champions (probably more than that by now, as his semen continued to be sold after his death until quite recently. However, he was bred extensively and his name shows up in a large number (at least hundreds if not thousands) of today's pedigrees. So they can't all be superstars. Rightly, or wrongly, my opinion is that this is a 'puppy mill' approach, which people should avoid. Hence other red flags should be equally attended to, and questions asked: What are their breeding goals/vision and plans? (And so on, not to reproduce my original list)How many litters does the breeder produce a year? If it is more than a couple, definite red flag. (If a 'reputable breeder' is churning out multiple litters each year, then in my mind they are NOT a reputable breeder). The main differences I see between them and a 'byb' are the facts that usually there is some good stock involved, and the sheer scale of the operation.
In some ways, with our current EM puppy, I've violated a lot of my own advice to others. My pup's parents were not health tested (although grandparents, great grandparents etc were). Neither parent was shown, although they were evaluated, and in the five generations of his pedigree, there are five champions. However, before even thinking about looking for a puppy, I spent over two years studying the Mastiff -- including breed standard, type, and extensive analysis of bloodlines -- looking in countless archives to find pictures and information on accomplishments, longeivity, and health problems of individuals through generations of lines that interested me. What my breeder did have going for her: She had a vision , and had scrimped, saved and sacrificed to obtain the lines she needed to realise it.
@ Dogman
I think the situation is far worse with breeds such as the Fila which are not yet recognised by the AKC --or at least by a single body. I couldn't believe the degree of controversy between CAFIB and CBKC, and I can see exactly what you mean. I never really thought that much about Filas until I joined this forum. Then you Fila peeps piqued my intereest and I began looking at the CAFIB and breeders' sites (and after your last post, the CBKC's). As I understand it the CBKC is the 'official' kennel club (?). Looking at breeders' pictures, I see dogs ranging from lean, athletic looking dogs with what I would describe as a 'dry' (Arab horse terminology) bloodhound-y head; heavier- set dogs with a bloodhound-y head with lots of loose skin and wrinkles; Heavier yet dogs with a shorter, more EM or Neo like head.......crikey, what a dilemma.
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